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RabbitWho
Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Location: Spain
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 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, there is a shortage of English teachers here, yes it's to find a job here, no, it's not easy to find a well paying job.
90% of ESL teaching jobs in Spain seem to involve teaching children, for that reason I feel what I said was highly relevant. I am sorry you disagree.
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"I would've though Spain would be a top destination for native speakers and there would therefore be no need to employ teachers from Central Europe."
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You are explicitly stating here that you consider teachers from Central Europe to be of inferior quality, I think that is very rude and shows a complete lack of understanding of what the job involves. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| But that hasn't anything to do with the native vs non native speaker issue, we have two teachers with the same qualifications and experiences and competencies - who would you employ? |
I am currently in exactly this situation and we will employ the teacher who is able to demonstrate that his/her actual teaching skills are the best match. I have candidates with equal quals, both native and nonnative. The natives are simply not automatically preferred.
Again, this has been the pattern at all three universities which have employed me over the past 15 years.
We simply don't make the black-and-white choice you imply would be obvious. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| RabbitWho wrote: |
You are explicitly stating here that you consider teachers from Central Europe to be of inferior quality, I think that is very rude and shows a complete lack of understanding of what the job involves. |
If you mean inferior quality to native speakers when all things are equal I would say that is the case, how isn't it?
I could never ever be under the illusion that I could be as good at teaching Polish or Slovak than a native speaker, whatever my background is in those languages. This argument works both ways.
Last edited by robbie_davies on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
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| But that hasn't anything to do with the native vs non native speaker issue, we have two teachers with the same qualifications and experiences and competencies - who would you employ? |
I am currently in exactly this situation and we will employ the teacher who is able to demonstrate that his/her actual teaching skills are the best match. I have candidates with equal quals, both native and nonnative. The natives are simply not automatically preferred.
Again, this has been the pattern at all three universities which have employed me over the past 15 years.
We simply don't make the black-and-white choice you imply would be obvious. |
I think it is a lot more obvious than you make out, and I know what the students prefer, actually, I am at a British university in England (That won't be named) right now that employs non-native English speakers to teach linguistic modules and the complaints about their competence and behaviour are going through the roof at this particular institution.
And it has nothing to do with their English fluency, which is really flawless - despite that, they even admit that their command of English is not the equal of native speaker, though they are very informed on grammar, linguistics and current TESOL methodology and issues.
However, the sad fact is, if and when they mess up, their non native
speaker status is brought up and highlighted and other students, especially the international students whose first language isn't English feel confident about challenging their authority in the way they wouldn't do with a native speaker lecturer.
Last edited by robbie_davies on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that this says more about those particular learners in the unnamed university than about the competencies of the non-native teachers. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it is a lot more obvious than you make out, and I know what the students prefer, actually, I am at a British university (That won't be named) right now that employs non-native English speakers to teach linguistic modules and the complaints about their competence and behaviour are going through the roof at this particular institution. |
Too bad, but cannot be generalized across all institutions and situations.
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However, the sad fact is, if and when they mess up, their non native
speaker status is brought up and highlighted and other students, especially the international students whose first language isn't English feel confident about challenging their authority in the way they wouldn't do with a native speaker lecturer. |
I agree with Sasha. This reaction simply isn't the norm in all institutions. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I think that this says more about those particular learners in the unnamed university than about the competencies of the non-native teachers. |
You think so? I don't.
If you knew what was going on and you had any academic integrity after knowing what these particular people got up to, you would sack the lecturers in question quick smart - but then you would if they were native speakers.
But yes, their non native status puts them under the microscope when they make a mistake - from everybody. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="spiral78"]
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I think it is a lot more obvious than you make out, and I know what the students prefer, actually, I am at a British university (That won't be named) right now that employs non-native English speakers to teach linguistic modules and the complaints about their competence and behaviour are going through the roof at this particular institution.
Too bad, but cannot be generalized across all institutions and situations.
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Who is generalising? I am not, I am talking about this particular institution and I am sure there are great NNS teachers, it is just that most of them aren't brilliant and are not better than native speakers, and if you had two teachers who were equal across the board. one was NS and one was NNS. Who would you pick? Simple as that.
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However, the sad fact is, if and when they mess up, their non native
speaker status is brought up and highlighted and other students, especially the international students whose first language isn't English feel confident about challenging their authority in the way they wouldn't do with a native speaker lecturer.
I agree with Sasha. This reaction simply isn't the norm in all institutions. |
Who says it was? I was making a comment about where I am at, at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]Who is generalising? I am not, I am talking about this particular institution and I am sure there are great NNS teachers, it is just that most of them aren't brilliant and are not better than native speakers[/quote],
Definition of generalization...??
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| and if you had two teachers who were equal across the board. one was NS and one was NNS. Who would you pick? Simple as that. |
As I noted before, I'd pick the one whose specific skills sets and interests were the closest match to our needs. That might be either one. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry, Robbie. Not following your line at all. If the non-natives teachers have messed up somehow, then that is one matter - the same for all of us. So, how exactly does their status as non-natives come into it at all? Are you implying that their academic problems and misdeeds stem from being non-natives? |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="spiral78"]Who is generalising? I am not, I am talking about this particular institution and I am sure there are great NNS teachers, [b]it is just that most of them aren't brilliant and are not better than native speakers,
Definition of generalization...?? |
No, because most teachers aren't brilliant whatever their language status is, you would agree that most teachers are average whatever their first language is. It is a statement of truth - the statement in the OP that many NNS teachers are superior to NS teachers is crap also.
As for them not being better than native speakers, again, I have to point this out - the comparison can only be made between one teacher against another if everything is EQUAL. Sure, An MA Linguistics holder from Sweden is probably a better teacher than some Kiwi backpacker - so what? What does that prove?
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and if you had two teachers who were equal across the board. one was NS and one was NNS. Who would you pick? Simple as that.
As I noted before, I'd pick the one whose specific skills sets and interests were the closest match to our needs. That might be either one. |
A general ESL class. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Sorry, Robbie. Not following your line at all. If the non-natives teachers have messed up somehow, then that is one matter - the same for all of us. So, how exactly does their status as non-natives come into it at all? Are you implying that their academic problems and misdeeds stem from being non-natives? |
Now now Sasha! I don't care for the implication you are making as a black person of Venezuelan and Trinidadian descent - My father is a non native speaker of English and I am a non native speaker of Spanish. Has naught to do with it.
What I am saying is that their NNS status brings in fire from NNS status students they are teaching, you would think that they have been through the same trials and tribulations as their learners - that is the mantra that gets passed around here - however, when the lecturers in question mess up, their NNS status comes under the microscope and the students have made it known that they would prefer native speakers to teach them. Is that a fair request? When they have paid 15000 pounds to live and study in England?
Main point being, two teachers of equal capabilities and qualifications and talent and everything else - one is native and one is non native - who would you pick? Who would your students prefer?
Doesn't matter what the language is - it could be Swahili or Estonian! You would have to be an unthinking disciple of Widdowson to even suggest that the NNS would win it in 50% of the case with all things being equal. That is all that is being said. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not implying anything of the sort. Non-native status has nothing to do with it, as you say, if a teacher is having problems, whatever the learners may believe. Just cannot understand why an issue is being made in the first place. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I am not implying anything of the sort. Non-native status has nothing to do with it, as you say, if a teacher is having problems, whatever the learners may believe. Just cannot understand why an issue is being made in the first place. |
I am not a non-native speaker of English so I don't have any first hand views on it but just from what they have been telling me, here are a few of their gripes.
The reason the NNS students come to the UK and pay up to 15000 pounds in international tuition fees is because they want native speakers teaching them or else they would have gone to Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea or a glut of places where they can also be taught by NNS at half the cost.
Wherever we like it or not, if a teacher who is a NNS makes a mistake - their NNS status gets brought up. When we all started out, didn't it happen to us when we weren't conversant in grammar rules?
Yes - and we are native speakers. Is it fair on the NNS teacher if they are actually in the right? No. Is it a part of teaching English? It is for all of us. To say that it isn't widespread is naive at best. It is just an extra burden for the NNS teacher to bear, it is exactly the same for me when I teach Spanish. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| No, because most teachers aren't brilliant whatever their language status is, you would agree that most teachers are average whatever their first language is. |
I wouldn't agree, actually.
As I said before, teaching is both science and art. Most teachers tend to have things they do well (and are interested in) and other things they do less well. I wouldn't classify most teachers as average - most teachers are individuals, with their own strengths and weaknesses in the field.
I am currently interviewing teachers with related post grad degrees and specific experience teaching in a particular type of setting. We have both ns and nns candidates. By no means will we choose a candidate on the basis of his or her L1. All these candidates have C2 English. We will choose the ones who demonstrate the skill set we need (as I've said before). Regardless of L1.
I, myself, hold related post-grad degrees and have over 15 years of experience in a range of academic and business settings. However, no way could I do a good job in, for example, a context where most students are Asian (too far distant from my preferred approaches and methods) or young learners or even teenagers - I haven't got the skill sets. I also don't work well with low-level learners.
There are MANY nns speakers who could do a better job than I in any of the above.
And I'm not one of a kind  |
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