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qwertyu2
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 93
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 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
Oh yeah, despite the apologists, English in Japan is a joke. The government might as well burn a pile of money every year, for how much they get out of JTs and ALTs.
I too taught with various JTEs, and some had some pretty good English(not fluent) while others, well it was kinda sad how bad their English was.
It is just a spiral of failure and poor teaching techniques coupled with people who don't understand English. It continually feeds upon it's self. Saddest thing I heard, was I was teaching a 3rd grade class, and I had 'inspired one of the kids to want to be an English teacher'. Broke my heart there.
i think if they stopped teaching English altogether, and just let people who wanted to learn, hit juku, or go to a private school/magnet school, Japan would be better off, and wouldn't be wasting massive amounts of money on a black hole |
I strongly agree. Like much of what happens in Japan, English education has become yet another entrenched interest which operates primarily to perpetuate its own existence, results be damned. As I mentioned above, I also agree that many (if not most) of the students would be better off if left to study on their own.
The idea that they're going to fix things by starting in elementary school using the same teachers and the same methods would be hilarious if it weren't so depressing. All they're really going to accomplish is to teach students hate English at an even earlier age. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| qwertyu2 wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
Oh yeah, despite the apologists, English in Japan is a joke. The government might as well burn a pile of money every year, for how much they get out of JTs and ALTs.
I too taught with various JTEs, and some had some pretty good English(not fluent) while others, well it was kinda sad how bad their English was.
It is just a spiral of failure and poor teaching techniques coupled with people who don't understand English. It continually feeds upon it's self. Saddest thing I heard, was I was teaching a 3rd grade class, and I had 'inspired one of the kids to want to be an English teacher'. Broke my heart there.
i think if they stopped teaching English altogether, and just let people who wanted to learn, hit juku, or go to a private school/magnet school, Japan would be better off, and wouldn't be wasting massive amounts of money on a black hole |
I strongly agree. Like much of what happens in Japan, English education has become yet another entrenched interest which operates primarily to perpetuate its own existence, results be damned. As I mentioned above, I also agree that many (if not most) of the students would be better off if left to study on their own.
The idea that they're going to fix things by starting in elementary school using the same teachers and the same methods would be hilarious if it weren't so depressing. All they're really going to accomplish is to teach students hate English at an even earlier age. |
Couldn't agree more. this is why ALTs come to Japan, see this nonsense , get fed up, and then post on bigdaikon(or used to) |
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qwertyu2
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| It is just a spiral of failure and poor teaching techniques coupled with people who don't understand English. It continually feeds upon it's self. Saddest thing I heard, was I was teaching a 3rd grade class, and I had 'inspired one of the kids to want to be an English teacher'. Broke my heart there. |
So, they've started English in elementary schools? I thought that was still a while off. I must be getting old. I remember when this was just a twinkle in some Monbusho bureaucrat's eye. In fact, I remember discussions about it back when I was an ALT and the local kyoikuinkai folks gushing about how it was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Of course, if their superiors had told them their schools were going to teach all their classes in Ebonics, I'm sure they would have agreed that was an excellent idea, too. |
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kah5217
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 270
Location: Ibaraki
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| It's a BOE by BOE thing. I went to an ES and taught 1-4th for a day. The first grade class was only 4 girls but they were smart and knew the whole alphabet (even V). Some co-workers only teach 5th and 6th. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| qwertyu2 wrote: |
| Of course, if their superiors had told them their schools were going to teach all their classes in Ebonics, I'm sure they would have agreed that was an excellent idea, too. |
Teaching in African American Vernacular English or, indeed, in any dialect of English, would be a big improvement over the teaching in Japanese we have now. But the sad reality is that it would end up degenerating into tedious, garbled explanations, in Japanese, of the difference between "Ah been done ..." and "Ah done been ...". |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| qwertyu2 wrote: |
| Of course, if their superiors had told them their schools were going to teach all their classes in Ebonics, I'm sure they would have agreed that was an excellent idea, too. |
Teaching in African American Vernacular English or, indeed, in any dialect of English, would be a big improvement over the teaching in Japanese we have now. But the sad reality is that it would end up degenerating into tedious, garbled explanations, in Japanese, of the difference between "Ah been done ..." and "Ah done been ...". |
LOL
yeah, and then they would show an entire blackboard's worth of a diagram showing how they are indeed different. |
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marley'sghost
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| kah5217 wrote: |
| It's a BOE by BOE thing. I went to an ES and taught 1-4th for a day. The first grade class was only 4 girls but they were smart and knew the whole alphabet (even V). Some co-workers only teach 5th and 6th. |
I'm pretty sure it's a national thing. The 5th and 6th graders get one English class a week. The other grades it's an extra, let's play Eigo with the ALT, fun day. There was a textbook for the 5th and 6th graders called "Eigo Note" that was optional for a couple years, then mandatory last year or the year before, I forget which. Eigo note was awful. This year, the 5th and 6th graders have a textbook called "Hi Friends" and an English class once a week. It's a bit better, looks like they worked out a few of the Eigonote bugs.
I'm all for English in the elementary schools.
What kills English in JHS and SHS is that it is a test subject. The English teachers have to teach "the textbook" to prepare students for their entrance examinations. Even the good teachers who could teach the kids how to actually communicate in this "eigo" noise, simply don't have time. Communication can't be evaluated with a multiple choice test you know.
Also, in case you have not heard, English classes were increased from 3 a week to 4 a week in public JHS. I don't know about senior high.
"This doesn't seem to be working......better do more of it......" The mantra of Japanese education. No schools seem to have gotten any extra English teachers that I've noticed. More work, and the Japanese teachers at my schools all had a their bonus cut this year. Times are getting lean for everyone, not just us ALTS (back to the original topic ). |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| marley'sghost wrote: |
| "This doesn't seem to be working......better do more of it......" The mantra of Japanese education |
Not just of education. It's the motto of Japan. I think an accurate translation of ganbare would be, "If it it doesn't work, do it harder."
Incidentally, I work in a school district where they do teach English Communication. Unfortunately, they teach it as a separate topic, rather than incorporating it into the main curriculum. Oops! |
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marley'sghost
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| marley'sghost wrote: |
| "This doesn't seem to be working......better do more of it......" The mantra of Japanese education |
Not just of education. It's the motto of Japan. I think an accurate translation of ganbare would be, "If it it doesn't work, do it harder."
Incidentally, I work in a school district where they do teach English Communication. Unfortunately, they teach it as a separate topic, rather than incorporating it into the main curriculum. Oops! |
Interesting. Is it a sentaku? At least they make some effort in that direction and quite realistically, it's about the best a public school can do. The "main" curriculum has to mesh with test schedules. Waste to much class time talking and the kids will flunk their written tests........
I was out chatting with the natives the other evening and one of the gals translated "ganbatte" as "Just do it." Puts a bit of an peppy spin on it.
Sorry, waaaay of topic now. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Pitarou said
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| Not just of education. It's the motto of Japan. I think an accurate translation of ganbare would be, "If it it doesn't work, do it harder." |
Beautifully expressed.
It's find to ganbare when you are folding origami or memorizing kanji, but it's near useless if you make your kids translate endlessly. It's dangerous and stupid if you're doing it in a martial arts dojo or working late in the office.
I hardly ever post complaints about Japanity. Maybe I need a hug or something?
About Gr 5 and 6 elementary school foreign language education, 「外国語活動」 - each Gr 5 and 6 class, nation wide, receives 35 hours of English activities. Not all cities successfully deliver 35 hours to all children in all schools.
I write regularly about it and junior high English regularly on a blog I built for my city's ALTs. See http://kaltitude.wordpress.com/ |
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qwertyu2
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| marley'sghost wrote: |
| I was out chatting with the natives the other evening and one of the gals translated "ganbatte" as "Just do it." Puts a bit of an peppy spin on it. |
Many years ago, back when I was still in university in the States, I was involved in a sports competition and a Japanese exchange student friend came to cheer for me. I distinctly remember him yelling above the crowd: "Tryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!" I'm sure he was translating "Gambare!" as directly as he could.
As an aside, I remember another Japanese exchange who was also involved with our university club. His English was very good. I remember he gave a typical Japanese style self-introduction to our group and closed with, "Please favor me." At the time I thought it a bit odd. But years later I remembered his introduction and thought, "That's a pretty good translation of 'yoroshiku onegaishimasu." |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| marley'sghost wrote: |
| Interesting. Is it a sentaku? At least they make some effort in that direction and quite realistically, it's about the best a public school can do. |
It isn't elective. It's a special programme funded by central government.
You may be right that it's the best they can do, but not for the reasons you gave. Ever heard of the Communicative Approach? It's pretty much the standard paradigm for language teaching in the West. It's entirely possible to teach to the national curriculum with the communicative approach, and if it was adopted in Japan, I think you'd find students waste far less time than they do now. But you'd have a hard time persuading many of the teachers I've worked with to go along with it. |
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marley'sghost
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:09 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Pitarou You may be right that it's the best they can do, but not for the reasons you gave. Ever heard of the Communicative Approach? It's pretty much the standard paradigm for language teaching in the West. It's entirely possible to teach to the national curriculum with the communicative approach, and if it was adopted in Japan, I think you'd find students waste far less time than they do now. But you'd have a hard time persuading many of the teachers I've worked with to go along with it.[/quote]
I'm no academic, so I had to google it. No worries. Pair-work, info-gaps, interviews, role-play, games, my middle name is "Communicative Approach". It's just too long to write everytime.
But, as the end goal of Japanese English education is to produce test scores, not language competency. I'm not sure that in pure mathmatical terms .............amount of materialXnumber of students/class time=multiple choice test scores, what I do is as efficient in producing those test scores as the lecture/drill/cram/rinse/repeat method.
LDCRR? Is that in the JALT journals?
I know what you are talking about when you say it would be hard to persuade teachers to get down and get communicative. Some don't have the abilty. Many that do, don't have the confidence. And finally those with both, well, it's taking a big chance rocking the boat. Best to play it safe and let Mr. Marley do the student dramas, interviews and q&a games. Be careful. If they get too good at teaching English, they won't need us anymore. (joke that)
When I came over as a JET back in the day, I taugh High School. And it was dreary. The textbooks were tomes of read/translate exercises illustrated with arcane grammar diagrams. They were studying the languge like you would study dissecting a frog. But no frog even, just a picture of the frog. No scalples needed.
For all their flaws, the stuff I see happening in the E.S and the JHS is much more communicative. They still get stuck teaching "the textbook" not the language, but it is getting better. I was walking through the hall between classes and saw the remnants of an English shiritori game on the blackboard. One of the JTEs stole my game! Good for her! |
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marley'sghost
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:11 am Post subject: |
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sorry for the double post
Last edited by marley'sghost on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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marley'sghost
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| marley'sghost wrote: |
| Interesting. Is it a sentaku? At least they make some effort in that direction and quite realistically, it's about the best a public school can do. |
It isn't elective. It's a special programme funded by central government.
You may be right that it's the best they can do, but not for the reasons you gave. Ever heard of the Communicative Approach? It's pretty much the standard paradigm for language teaching in the West. It's entirely possible to teach to the national curriculum with the communicative approach, and if it was adopted in Japan, I think you'd find students waste far less time than they do now. But you'd have a hard time persuading many of the teachers I've worked with to go along with it. |
I'm no academic, so I had to google it. No worries. Pair-work, info-gaps, interviews, role-play, games, my middle name is "Communicative Approach". It's just too long to write everytime.
But, as the end goal of Japanese English education is to produce test scores, not language competency. I'm not sure that in pure mathmatical terms .............amount of materialXnumber of students/class time=multiple choice test scores, what I do is as efficient in producing those test scores as the lecture/drill/cram/rinse/repeat method.
LDCRR? Is that in the JALT journals?
I know what you are talking about when you say it would be hard to persuade teachers to get down and get communicative. Some don't have the abilty. Many that do, don't have the confidence. And finally those with both, well, it's taking a big chance rocking the boat. Best to play it safe and let Mr. Marley do the student dramas, interviews and q&a games. Be careful. If they get too good at teaching English, they won't need us anymore. (joke that)
When I came over as a JET back in the day, I taught High School. And it was dreary. The textbooks were tomes of read/translate exercises illustrated with arcane grammar diagrams. They were studying the languge like you would study dissecting a frog. But no frog even, just a picture of the frog. No scalpels needed.
For all their flaws, the stuff I see happening in the E.S and the JHS is much more communicative. They still get stuck teaching "the textbook" not the language, but it is getting better. I was walking through the hall between classes and saw the remnants of an English shiritori game on the blackboard. One of the JTEs stole my game! Good for her! |
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