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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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 Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, EXCUSE ME for being from North America! How utterly presumptuous of me to think that I could breathe the same rarified air as you Europeans! |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, good. My former disappointment has been lifted somewhat.
But, c'mon. Form is such a basic item of linguistic terminology. Nothing European about it. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Well, since google agrees with me, I'm going to keep calling them parts - but only in private. They'll be my private parts. 
Regards,
John |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat
In what way does Google agree with you? Does it state, in error, that 'verb part' is the more frequent term in linguistic literature? Surely not?
Full Party member Sasha |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Only in that it provides about 3,630,000 results for a search "Principal parts of a verb in English.
http://tinyurl.com/m4ddjo9
Oh, I realize it's not "scientific," but I looked over enough of them to satisfy myself that I am, by no means, alone calling them "principal parts"
Regards,
John |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat
That is a big number. Kewl! But look at mine! 28 million plus! I win, I win!!!
https://www.google.ru/search?q=verb+forms&oq=verb+forms&aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0l3j69i62l2.5375j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
No one said 'Parts, parts? What's all this? Where are the students getting this stuff from? Parts? I just don't understand!' Parts is an accepted term, especially in metalanguage used to describe highly-inflected languages, like Latin. However, it is nowhere near as common as form is. To try to explain away a gap in one's knowledge by dismissing the term form as some sort of minor Britishism, occasionally used by some, is extremely shortsighted at best. Tsk tsk! There will be an official Party reprimand winging its way to all concerned presently.
Best wishes
Battle formation Sasha |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| My Chinese students introduced verb 1 / verb 2 / verb 3 to me, and Ive kinda adopted it too. I have lots of material referring to grammar with specialised words like 'infinitive' and 'past participle' and my students can stumble and stutter over the meta-language. So if you can find a simple common ground I think its a better option to use it. 'Auxiliaries' has become 'verb helpers' ... which is much easier and possibly better for my students. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Dear Johnslat
That is a big number. Kewl! But look at mine! 28 million plus! I win, I win!!!
https://www.google.ru/search?q=verb+forms&oq=verb+forms&aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0l3j69i62l2.5375j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
No one said 'Parts, parts? What's all this? Where are the students getting this stuff from? Parts? I just don't understand!' Parts is an accepted term, especially in metalanguage used to describe highly-inflected languages, like Latin. However, it is nowhere near as common as form is. To try to explain away a gap in one's knowledge by dismissing the term form as some sort of minor Britishism, occasionally used by some, is extremely shortsighted at best. Tsk tsk! There will be an official Party reprimand winging its way to all concerned presently.
Best wishes
Battle formation Sasha |
Except that no one is "dismissing" the word "form," the terms in question were FIRST FORM (infinitive), SECOND FORM (past simple), THIRD FORM (past participle). From one TESOL course provider: "First, second, third form or first column, second column or third column are terms some students use to refer to the forms of irregular verbs. That is not a very academic term..." I hadn't come across these terms before and they aren't found in ANY text or reference work I've seen. Excuse me for not being aware of these NON-ACADEMIC terms! |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Ah, good. My former disappointment has been lifted somewhat.
But, c'mon. Form is such a basic item of linguistic terminology. Nothing European about it. |
Where? Not in any text or reference I've seen. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Form is in all the literature. First form etc, while not academic terminology, is common classroom metalanguage. How do you feel about 'question forms'? Or 'positive' forms, or negative forms? Not very academic language either, yet pose no barrier to comprehension. Interrogatives and affirmatives, on the other hand....
In any case, for further elucidation, try these Google search results:
http://tinyurl.com/qamqfmf |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Form is in all the literature. First form etc, while not academic terminology, is common classroom metalanguage. How do you feel about 'question forms'? Or 'positive' forms, or negative forms? Not very academic language either, yet pose no barrier to comprehension. Interrogatives and affirmatives, on the other hand.... |
I don't feel anything about "question forms," "positive forms" or "negative forms;" I don't experience any emotion or physical sensation regarding them. The only time I refer to forms is when I refer to the gerund as the "i-n-g form," which is what the textbooks I'm using have. I use infinitive, past simple and past participle, not "first form," "second form" or "third form."
So, where did you find "first form," "second form" and "third form" in those Google pages? There was discussion of forms but not the specific terminology I was asking about. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
| My Chinese students introduced verb 1 / verb 2 / verb 3 to me, and Ive kinda adopted it too. I have lots of material referring to grammar with specialised words like 'infinitive' and 'past participle' and my students can stumble and stutter over the meta-language. So if you can find a simple common ground I think its a better option to use it. 'Auxiliaries' has become 'verb helpers' ... which is much easier and possibly better for my students. |
But if they go on to take the IELTS or TOEFL or go on to university in an Anglophone country, they're going to need the academic language. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Learners taking IELTS or TOEFL will not need any metalanguage at all to take those tests. (Unless TOEFL has changed again...) They would only need these terms if they were studying linguistics at uni. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Form is in all the literature. First form etc, while not academic terminology, is common classroom metalanguage. How do you feel about 'question forms'? Or 'positive' forms, or negative forms? Not very academic language either, yet pose no barrier to comprehension. Interrogatives and affirmatives, on the other hand.... |
I don't feel anything about "question forms," "positive forms" or "negative forms;" I don't experience any emotion or physical sensation regarding them. The only time I refer to forms is when I refer to the gerund as the "i-n-g form," which is what the textbooks I'm using have. I use infinitive, past simple and past participle, not "first form," "second form" or "third form."
So, where did you find "first form," "second form" and "third form" in those Google pages? There was discussion of forms but not the specific terminology I was asking about. |
Sorry Chancellor, but the terms 'first form' etc are all over the links I supplied. Can't you find them? For example: www.studyandexam.com/verb.html
In any case, you are free to use any terms you wish. First form, or even V1 works well in a classroom - mainly because the infinitive has the same form as the present. Again, V3 is convenient because it covers multiple use in perfect forms and passives etc.
In a similar vein, some people use the term 'present continuous'. Some prefer 'present progressive'. Surely it is not too much to expect that we should at least recognise what these terms mean, even if we do not use them ourselves? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just had a bath, and a wonderful idea hit me! Chancellor, why don't you conduct a little classroom experiment? Say you have two groups, around low intermediate level. You want to present conditionals, for example, the Third Conditional. Try whiteboarding the form for one class as follows:
If+subj+had+V3, subj+modal+have+V3
Then, with the other group, try using the other terms, e.g. past participle, to describe the conditional structure. Or even go the whole hog and use terms like Past Perfect and Present Perfect.
See if there is any difference in the effect on learning. Does one reduce the cognitive load on learners significantly more than the other? Are they both as effective as each other? Why, why not?
Could be a nice little classroom research project, promising eureka moments. |
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