Job Discussion Forums

[Non Sequitur]

Go for unis and then add stress and $$ with privates.

[BlueBlood]

My friend who teaches in GZ is very tatted up. Never heard of it being a problem for him or even mentioned.

NS, that's very cool of you to get active here when us noobs are in force asking questions. How the world has changed: My second of 3 extended stays in Taiwan, I just jumped on a plane for Taipei, took a city bus to town, knocked on a door of teacher who ran his own school from his home, and winged it! He let me "sleep" on two desks put together. On day two or three an old gf found me a rooftop room. The rest (ESL job; motorbike; new gf) was comparably quite simple. Ah, those were the days...

Mr. Wright and I are evidently similar beasts. I'm planning well ahead this go round. MW, have you considered a scouting trip, say during the winter break?

[Denim-Maniac]

[roadwalker]

I just want to echo what Denim-Maniac said regarding Chinese unis and uni jobs. They aren't much like western universities, particularly if you are from the U.S. where students choose their own schedules, courses etc. and can change majors fairly easily. Instead most unis here are like high school boarding schools where your classmates are your classmates for life, your major is set in stone, you can't live off-campus (although many find a way) and there are very few elective classes. Masters and doctorates are certainly welcome but not enough to pay (much) more for. English majors can usually understand spoken English and can usually respond.

The job is fairly stress-free for the most part. You decide what to do in the class in many or most cases (some schools are more insistent on following a crap textbook that they supply) and the hours are great. You aren't expected to have much non-teaching duties other than an occasional speech contest or something similar (N.B. you will be expected to "say a few words about the lovely performances" even when you aren't warned ahead of time.)

I also agree that taking a CELTA or similar in-person TEFL training course would be beneficial, in that the issues most likely to pop up will be discussed, you get a bit of time thinking of language learning from the learner's point of view, you'll get a grammar review, and you'll have real practice with real students and then feedback from experienced EFL teachers. ( I took a "like a CELTA" course many years ago.) With your teaching experience many of the issues won't apply, but it must be different going from teaching students with assumed language ability to teaching students language. It's not necessary to get a job in China in your case, though.

Some mills may be better since they focus on a set curriculum in a certain order and group students by ability. In other words a lot of structure and logic (for the better ones). Some universities seem to be organized but the majority don't seem to be. Or at least they don't share the plan with the foreign teachers. On the other hand, little is asked of the foreign teacher. We get more time than our Chinese counterparts to travel, relax or whatever. Mills have more hours and fewer holidays and more chances for office politics, in my opinion, but also more connection to the real world. So I have mostly taught in universities.

[jimpellow]

I would suggest that you have some pretty good options for yourself as you are certified/experienced in history and science.

I would shoot for teaching at the "international" high schools. No, not the real deal ones like Maple Leaf, which can be pressure cookers, but the Chinese versions. They vary in quality, but almost all now have college prep programs attempting to extract as much money as possible from richer Chinese parents hoping to send their children overseas for university.

The first time I taught subjects in an international high school, the only thing that was international about it was me. The funny thing is they actually duped some young German filmmakers to come and shoot a documentary about their "world famous international" high school.

But overall not a bad workload, lots of vacation, and the programs pay very well if you can teach subjects like physics, math, biology, economics. The biggest downside is you usually have to live on a campus which has curfews and strict opposite sex visitor policies. Oddly, if you are gay, you can be a real playboy as the Chinese can't seem to figure that one out.

There is an ongoing massive demand for these subject teachers. You will never have a problem finding a position, though yes, more hiring in August and December.

There are exceptions, but I suggest staying away from Chinese recruiters. Too many only think about their own wallets. I would either contact the school directly or find a Western recruiter, who are usually better but caution still advised. You can email me at [email protected] if you want a good English one in Hong Kong I have used.

I tend to be much more negative about the visa situation on this board than most. But then again, I have read the regulations and immigration lawyers interpretations of it. The visa process is in the process of quickly becoming more difficult and standardized across the country. For some odd reason, the new regime has some kind of agenda to do it. True, differences at this point still exist. And you may be wise to choose a province where at this point not as much is needed. The schools themselves often are ignorant of all of these changes. You need to be careful as any errors made in the process will need to be corrected and paid for by YOU.

On a sour note, but China is stressful. There are some definite non financial rewards, but be prepared for a very unique people to put it nicely. For example, don't be surprised to walk into the classroom at the time you need to give a standardized test, only to find it empty, as the class master has decided the students should run around the track instead.

On the other hand, that is the advantage of the true international schools in China. Western management, policies, culture etc. More work, reports, meetings, etc... but the best pay and much less cultural insanity.

[MrWright]

Very cool. Huh, I like the sound of those not-so-international schools. Lots of em, eh? Obviously China would be a great market for that, given its population size. Are there many opportunities like that in other countries? I am assuming that the pay is better than ESL, right? How would you compare the pay vs. cost of living to say Korea? Would the savings potential be nearly as good? I would love to teach History or Biology, as both are on my certificate, but I'm guessing that History would be harder to find, as is usually the case.

[Bud Powell]

"...The job [working for a university] is fairly stress-free for the most part. You decide what to do in the class in many or most cases (some schools are more insistent on following a crap textbook that they supply) and the hours are great..."

I would not say that this is true of every university job. If the FT really cares about his work, the stressors can be monumental, especially if it is his first time teaching in a class room or the first time teaching in China. Unfortunately, too many university FTs put as little into their work as possible, so the impression is that the university job is a piece of cake. Because the pay is lower than it is for private enterprise institutions, there is less competition for positions in universities. Therefore, the university will put up with a lot more BS from the FT than another type of institution. As soon as the lunatic can be replaced, he is usually given an incentive to go elsewhere. Unfortunately, it often takes much too long to replace him.

In at least Jiangsu province, many colleges and universities are being relocated to areas farther from the center of the city where they were first built. The result is that the FTs work on one campus and live on another. (Or worse, their time is split between two campuses that are four or five miles away from each other or more). That becomes pretty stressful when one finds himself with an eighteen hour work load plus twelve to twenty hours in commute time.

Compounding the problems often encountered at colleges and universities that have a foreign language department is that the FT may teach more than one subject to four-to-six different groups of students. I guarantee that if the FT has even ONE writing class, he will spend a LOT of time correcting papers (provided, of course that the FT cares about his job).

What can make a university job easier is when the FT stays at the same school for a few years and collects a lot of supplemental material to bring to class to make up for the crummy texts that Roadwalker mentions.

I don't take complete exception to what Roadwalker says. I just caution someone from seeking a university job because he assumes that it will be an easy gig. The job is what one makes of it. Not all university jobs are oral English and fun and games, playing guitar, and telling jokes for an hour.

Perhaps a fair assessment might be that the university will put up with a lot more BS from the FT than a private enterprise will.

[GreatApe]

@ Mr. Wright

I would also echo what Denim-Maniac has written, although there can be a very large experiential difference in teaching jobs here from school to school, city to city, and province to province.

I was teaching in an ESTABLISHED International school last year teaching 22 to 24 hours a week, and was pretty well stressed to the max. This year, I'm teaching in a high school that is just starting its International program (I'm the I.S. program director) and it's MUCH less stressful!

I teach only 18 hours a week right now and it's a much better school and working situation (i.e. I have other Native English speaking teachers working with me). It's more of a team effort here now, as opposed to my last job where I felt like a one-man island.

I can certainly relate to your stress and the pressure of teaching in the states. I felt EXACTLY the same after teaching in the USA for 12 years. Oddly enough, the recession did me a big favor. I had changed schools the year before teaching in California and when the budget cuts hit, they said they couldn't afford to bring me back for the next year. So, I finished my contract and came to China.

Despite the adjustment and the "ups-and-downs" of learning a new way to live ... I have had absolutely NO regrets!

If you are at all interested in coming to Guangdong to work and teach, feel free to PM me. I know of a lot of jobs in the Shenzhen and Dongguan area and would be happy to help you. China needs well-qualified, good teachers. You could do quite well here.

--GA

[jimpellow]

[GreatApe]

jimpellow wrote:

[jimpellow]

^^^ THIS! ... is certainly true, although it paints a rather bleak picture which is certainly not true of ALL International schools just starting out and offering Chinese students an International program in which to study.

The market is growing, however, and teachers, students and parents need to be wary of schools that are "below board." There's a high learning curve for schools, just as there is for students (and teachers).

--GA[/quote]

I think your point is a very good one GA! There are schools which start out "below board", and then there are schools which start out with good intentions to be "above board".

Sadly, I found out through my own experiences that the "above board" programs seem to always find a way of ending up "below board". This appears in no small part due to almost every Chinese person involved trying to bend it and exploit it for personal gain. School headmaster, class master, college representatives, academic office etc.. all seem hellbent to to acquire as many hong baos and gift cards as possible. The wealthy parents are almost always wealthy as they have bribed, lied, stolen, backstabbed and so on to the upper end of Chinese society. It is natural for most of them to wonder why their child should stay in class and actually learn English when they can pay off the headmaster and classmaster to allow them to take off for two months and cram at a crappy local IELTS school where they are fed brain dumps.

I actually know of two true international schools where Western management employs a "secret" person on staff whose real job mission is to try to uncover the ongoing schemes by the Chinese support staff. LOL

The test I would employ is this; if the headmaster owns a car which far exceeds his modest salary, the program is doomed.

You are obviously more optimistic about the Chinese ability to learn. I hope you are right. It is a frightening concept that a society which is becoming so important in the World would continue to behave so poorly.

I am curious if anyone has worked at one of these international high schools where this crap doesn't go on?

[MrWright]

In these faux-intl schools, do they have any decent lab facilities? If I was teaching bio or any science, is it a fully functional science classroom, or does it end up being mostly book work, lecture notes, and other "regular" non-science type classes? If I were teaching History, what kind of History do they learn?

[jimpellow]

[BlueBlood]

@ Bud, I appreciate and respect your attitude towards teaching and professionalism. No question you have worthy ideals.

I cannot help but think, in terms of the low-pay jobs in China (and this will sound very American, I realize!): "You get what you pay for."

Yes, the housing is usually included, but the reality is that the vast majority of Yanks, Brits, Aussies, and Kiwis would never consider picking up sticks and moving to China, of all places. Then throw in how much pay? It sounds like often less than $1,000/mo., correct? Well, I can see how in such cases most teachers aren't willing to prepare, study their craft, purchase materials, and otherwise take ownership of their job.

I hope that isn't too politically correct but that's the sense I get. Now, if unis were paying $3,000/mo. or more, with free housing, then that would be another matter...

[Non Sequitur]

I think people come at it from various points in the compass.
US grads can't get a start with a corporate at home look to China. Older US people who've had a bad time of it in other ways also look to China. I expect this won't persist once the US economy picks up.
Kiwi and Aussie young people have long had a tradition of going overseas after graduating. The 'Big OE' as it's called. Older Oz and NZ people do it because being fit and financially OK want an adventure, that they maybe missed when they were younger.
UK people much the same as NZ and Oz.