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| Foreign words and phrases are useful only to English majors |
| I agree |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| I agree, but would add adult students to that |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| I think it also would be useful for more able Oral English students |
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40% |
[ 4 ] |
| I think all English language students would profit from it |
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30% |
[ 3 ] |
| I think that other than majors, other students wouldn't benefit |
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20% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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FreakingTea
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 167
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 Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| For example the French ‘cul de sac’, is shown as:..... |
sure......but in americaland (outside of boston) we don't use "culdesac."
we day "dead end."
"culdesac" would be less common than "fahrvergnügen." |
We say cul-de-sac in northern Kentucky. A dead end is different because it doesn't provide a handy way of turning around. Unless I've always misunderstood what cul-de-sac actually meant. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| FreakingTea wrote: |
| choudoufu wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| For example the French ‘cul de sac’, is shown as:..... |
sure......but in americaland (outside of boston) we don't use "culdesac."
we day "dead end."
"culdesac" would be less common than "fahrvergnügen." |
We say cul-de-sac in northern Kentucky. A dead end is different because it doesn't provide a handy way of turning around. Unless I've always misunderstood what cul-de-sac actually meant. |
In America, familiarity with this term is probably dependent upon location, age of the neighborhood, and socioeconomic status of the listener/reader. Newer neighborhoods in America (say, those built during the past forty years) generally don't end abruptly (a dead end). There's a house at the very end of the street. There's usually a rounded end to the street to allow people to turn around rather than to use someone's driveway for that purpose.
Be sure that the growing upper class in America knows what a cul-de-sac is.
I seriously doubt that the vast majority of Americans would be familiar with farvergnugen largely because it was used as an advertising slogan mostly in Europe and quickly passed from common usage. I also doubt that it has actually become a loan word (that is, included in the Oxford English Dictionary--- not the Oxford Dictionary. They're two completely different publications). I don't have an OED in my possession to support this, but I think that farvergnugen ranks somewhere in the lexicon of general usage with bootylicious which too, will fall into obscurity in a generation.
One interesting word which has crept into the English language and is in the OED (I know because I looked it up in the OED at my hometown university library) is the German schadenfreude. It means "derivation of pleasure from the misfortune of others". Not only is it in the OED, it's in online dictionaries. It is often used by psychologists and those writing about personality (in a medical context as well as in a literary context).
Would I teach schadenfreude in China? Probably not unless the class was composed of exceptional scholars of the English language.
Would I teach cul-de-sac in China? I'm not sure. I don't think I've ever seen one in China. |
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Harbin
Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
sure......but in americaland (outside of boston) we don't use "culdesac."
we day "dead end."
"culdesac" would be less common than "fahrvergnügen." |
I'm from the south and understand cul de sec better than the German phrase for pleasure trip  |
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Sarcastro
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 89
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| For example the French ‘cul de sac’, is shown as:..... |
sure......but in americaland (outside of boston) we don't use "culdesac."
we day "dead end."
"culdesac" would be less common than "fahrvergnügen." |
Im from Michigan and it would be the exact opposite. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| For example the French ‘cul de sac’, is shown as:..... |
sure......but in americaland (outside of boston) we don't use "culdesac."
we day "dead end."
"culdesac" would be less common than "fahrvergnügen." |
Wow!
Stop the world. Americaland wants to get off. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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"Dead-end" is different than "cul-de-sac" cause a cul-de-sac ain't! "Loop" would be closer (and more apropos).
| Quote: |
| Would I teach schadenfreude |
My former Chinese lady friend used this word in a text message; she was a functional English speaker, but far from fluent (I had to look it up). |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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American English has been heavily impacted by Spanish words. Unfortunately, most ESL learners have little or no knowledge of them. Were they to study and live in the U.S., they would benefit from knowing beforehand their meaning and correct pronunciation:
http://spanish.about.com/cs/historyofspanish/a/spanishloanword.htm |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Kalgukshi wrote: |
American English has been heavily impacted by Spanish words. Unfortunately, most ESL learners have little or no knowledge of them. Were they to study and live in the U.S., they would benefit from knowing beforehand their meaning and correct pronunciation:
http://spanish.about.com/cs/historyofspanish/a/spanishloanword.htm |
We are preparing our students to operate in the world of English in its widest sense. I don't see a regional or country bias as helpful.
Indeed a huge amount of future English use will be non-native to non-native speakers in Asia. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| It's helpful if they are planning on studying or living in a particular English first speaking nation that has been heavily impacted by other languages such as is the case with the U.S. |
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FreakingTea
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
In America, familiarity with this term is probably dependent upon location, age of the neighborhood, and socioeconomic status of the listener/reader. Newer neighborhoods in America (say, those built during the past forty years) generally don't end abruptly (a dead end). There's a house at the very end of the street. There's usually a rounded end to the street to allow people to turn around rather than to use someone's driveway for that purpose.
Be sure that the growing upper class in America knows what a cul-de-sac is. |
This makes sense. Northern KY is filled with new suburbs. In central KY I was much more likely to encounter a dead end, and even if there is a cul-de-sac, I doubt most of the people living there would call it that. The older folks, at least.
I also agree that some Spanish words should be introduced, at least briefly, if there's a chance the students will be going to the US. Mexican food, at the very least. They deserve to know how to order that wonderful cuisine. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Why the sudden lurch into ethnocentricity?
Do you know these common words used in NZ English?
Kapai
Kai
Kaimoana
Rangatira
Tai hoa
Ehoa
Wahine
Whare
At fresher and sophomore level our students are expecting a wide appreciation of English, not a local version that they may encounter at some future time. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
Why the sudden lurch into ethnocentricity?
Do you know these common words used in NZ English?
Kapai
Kai
Kaimoana
Rangatira
Tai hoa
Ehoa
Wahine
Whare
At fresher and sophomore level our students are expecting a wide appreciation of English, not a local version that they may encounter at some future time. |
Hmmm. I hadn't considered Maori having an influence on the English language on the whole before. I am familiar with wahini, and whare. I had to look them up to find that they were of Maori origin. I wonder where I got them from. I know only a few Kiwis and no Maori. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
Why the sudden lurch into ethnocentricity?
Do you know these common words used in NZ English?
Kapai
Kai
Kaimoana
Rangatira
Tai hoa
Ehoa
Wahine
Whare
At fresher and sophomore level our students are expecting a wide appreciation of English, not a local version that they may encounter at some future time. |
Hmmm. I hadn't considered Maori having an influence on the English language on the whole before. I am familiar with wahini, and whare. I had to look them up to find that they were of Maori origin. I wonder where I got them from. I know only a few Kiwis and no Maori. |
You would be understood in NZ and that's the point I'm making. Sure teach intense borrowings in special situations but not in general English classes.
Kapai = good
Kai = food
Kaimoana = seafood
Rangatira = chief or leader
Tai hoa = wait
Ehoa = brother
Wahine = woman
Whare = house |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:09 am Post subject: |
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I would not compare the influx of Maori to that of Spanish on the English language on a whole. English and Spanish are both in the top three most spoken languages in the world, where is Maori?
Also, if students where preparing to study, work, live in NZ then I even with it there obscurity in the English language Maori loan words would be useful. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
You would be understood in NZ and that's the point I'm making. Sure teach intense borrowings in special situations but not in general English classes.
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This is an interesting discussion.
Most loan words from Italy and France are unavoidable. Most of the terms of the arts are of French origin as are many words pertaining to cooking, government, and other facets of the lives of native speakers of English. All of notation terms in western music is Italian (and probably some German operatic terms as well).
Consider this: the English language began to change in the eleventh century with the Norman invasion. Historians and linguists consider the transformation of the English language to have been "complete" by the 1400's. Compare the English language of the 11th century to the English language of the 1400's and there is little comparison. Words have come and gone since then, but the English language has changed at a much slower rate between the 1400's and the 1800's. The French influence upon the English language is permanent, and French loan words are unavoidable. With this in mind, should one bother to point out the numerous French loan words? They are a part of our language, just as the Latin loan words are.
I think that certain words (in particular Spanish in the U.S.) should be taught as loan words because there are already English equivalents, for instance siesta. The English equivalent is a rest or a nap.
In the case of many French loan words, they were adopted because there were no Old English equivalents. (This does not account for the majority of the French loan words, though). The rest were just adopted because of the Angles' continued exposure to the French language.
Consider habeas corpus (literally, "give us the body"). It's a part of our legal system and it is Latin in origin. Should this be taught as a loan phrase/loan word?
These are tricky calls for the teacher; to whom he teaches the concept of loan words is tricky. My experience in teaching college and university English majors is that they eat this sort of thing up. It leads to all sorts of discoveries. |
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