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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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You didn't refute anything. You disagreed, but provided no coherent reason for doing so. These comments about being 'left behind' make little sense that I can discern.
As for PISA - let's not compare adult education with surveys of high school systems. Not comparing like with like. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I'm confused as to what other measure you could be claiming that Western model is being "left behind." Not by any method I can see, it isn't. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| Well I'm confused as to what other measure you could be claiming that Western model is being "left behind." |
Seems like you and Sasha have been overseas too long. Are you not aware of trends such as this?:
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| A 2009 study found that U.S. students ranked 25th among 34 countries in math and science, behind nations like China, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and Finland. Figures like these have groups like StudentsFirst, headed by former D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee, concerned and calling for reforms to "our education system [that] can't compete with the rest of the world. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry, old chum, but whatever does the relative poverty of general education in the States have to do with the availability of the Delta in the Far East? Despite being overseas for so long, I still expect discussions to be informed by relevant contributions. Of course, I could have missed yet another new trend... |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| Well I'm confused as to what other measure you could be claiming that Western model is being "left behind." |
Seems like you and Sasha have been overseas too long. Are you not aware of trends such as this?:
| Quote: |
| A 2009 study found that U.S. students ranked 25th among 34 countries in math and science, behind nations like China, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and Finland. Figures like these have groups like StudentsFirst, headed by former D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee, concerned and calling for reforms to "our education system [that] can't compete with the rest of the world. |
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What 2009 study was that? The 2009 PISA study that earlier in the thread you criticised me for mentioning, by any chance? You claimed that Western methodologies are being "left behind" and are quoting studies of state education systems (which don't really support your argument anyway, but let's ignore that for a second). You haven't presented any evidence that Western methods of language learning (you do realise that American and Western aren't the same thing right?) are being left behind. I must've missed the revolution in language teaching going on in Asia and the great results they're having in countries like Japan and Korea in getting people fluent in English. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| You haven't presented any evidence that Western methods of language learning (you do realise that American and Western aren't the same thing right?) are being left behind. I must've missed the revolution in language teaching going on in Asia and the great results they're having in countries like Japan and Korea in getting people fluent in English. |
Like I said, seems neither you nor Sasha have much experience in Asia. You ought to try teaching mixed classes to see how Asians pale in comparison to other regions in terms of fluency. That's not to say they can't ace written tests and most Chinese I've taught have exceptional spelling.
You're probably unaware of how tradition-bound educational practices still are in most areas of Asia, despite economic prosperity. If you take the time to read threads on the Japan, Korea, or China forums here, you'd realize this. All I'm suggesting is perhaps one reason why qual's such as the Delta, CELTA, MA TESL are not more widely required is the perception based on testing data that the western education model is flawed as many westerners would agree.
Worth noting is that the UK and US, regions with dismal results in public schooling, have among the highest ranking post-sec institutes which attract Asians in droves... to large lecture halls, just like back home. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| It is true I have not been based in the Far East. But I have lived and worked in Asia ( a big place!) and I have also taught Far Easterners for years in Anglophonia. Strangely enough, the methods which seem to be so casually derided on some country-specific threads, worked fairly well. Even with reticent Japanese learners. Based on this experience, and official literature, I would be very dubious about your claims that the Celta etc. are 'flawed'. No evidence has been provided for this sweeping statement at all. Talk about 'western education models' etc. is really missing the obvious point that class sizes in your region are just too unwieldy for effective communicative lessons. Wouldn't you say it is possible that it is really as simple as that? |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I would be very dubious about your claims that the Celta etc. are 'flawed'. No evidence has been provided for this sweeping statement at all. |
Who's making such a claim? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| You appear to be. But I'm not completely certain what you are trying to say all the time. We appear to have different understandings of various words - 'refute', for example. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha, I'm not sure where your confusion arises. Let me remind you how this got started:
| In speculating why the Delta is not more widely available in Asia, you wrote: |
| Many criteria apply, and one of the most basic is class size. Classrooms with over 20 learners, for example, are not going to be conducive to learning through communicative methodology, so there is little point in running a Delta course in such conditions. Perhaps that's partly the reason for the lack of courses available? |
| Then I wrote: |
| That can't be it. The only large classes in Asia are in public and post-secondary schools---same as anywhere else. |
In questioning my use of the term 'refute', did you expect hard evidence to support the above generalization that the vast majority of private language schools in Asia have small class sizes? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| You opened this thread with the claim that China is the largest EFL market on the planet. Are you suggesting that the vast majority of this market is composed of small and manageable classes of no more than 8 to 10 students in language schools? Evidence please. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Are you suggesting that the vast majority of this market is composed of small and manageable classes of no more than 8 to 10 students in language schools? Evidence please. |
No, but not all 50,000 private language providers are test prep centers. Some operate more than 100 franchise schools with FT taught classes capped at anywhere from 6 to 18. I don't have the data in terms of number of FTs at private vs public. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Pointless argument. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:04 am Post subject: |
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But it's the only wheel in town.
I was enjoying the IELTS discussion, maybe we could get that juiced up again?
Flood tides?
News items? The doctor who dumped a patient in the river after a botched boob job? |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
But it's the only wheel in town.
I was enjoying the IELTS discussion, maybe we could get that juiced up again?
Flood tides?
News items? The doctor who dumped a patient in the river after a botched boob job? |
It's strange the IELTS topic died so quickly...I thought that would have held interest.
Yeah, I heard about that one. How anyone could go into an unlicensed beauty salon in Hanoi to get a boob job is beyond me...and...for the owners to run the body, bike, bag and shoes down to the river for all to see.
Over on the Qatar forum, the school that I just quit from (Newton International) had one of its young, female teachers (a Brit) murdered. I warned these girls not to accept these drinks, starting at 10 dollars a pop, from Arab men, and think they can get away with it - Ok, I didn't think anything THAT sinister would have happened... |
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