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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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 Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Gretschen wrote: |
| as he got by for a long time in Korea pretty much just teaching conversation classes. |
Sorry to be briefly picking up again on one of my fave topics, but I always find this particular dichotomy interesting and somewhat revealing (not that you're the one really posing the dichotomy, Gretschen!). It's as if those who are certified and claim to be actually teaching anything worthwhile relating to speech somehow do so through another medium "entirely" (a superior Vulcan Mind-meld Methodology (TM)?), while those lacking certs (or not claiming any particular debt to theirs) couldn't possibly teach anything of use in the overall context of what might on the surface of it appear just a nice friendly chat (and let's not forget all the "piecemeal" acquisition going on completely outside of the obvious classrooms!). Why do students pay to be patronized and strung along so with "approved" but often pretty empty, divorced methodology? |
Well the dude himself there is either being modest or admitting he didnt have much clue what he was doing other than having a conversation with a bunch of foreigners. If you were hiring for a school that uses te Headway books, then ut doesnt make much sense for you to hire someone who hasnt seen a set of materials beyond his Eikaiwa's own brand book.
I suppose if we look at the CELTA and Trinity certificates, I assume they were brought in by the British Council (UK internatiol PR department) to provide some protection for the customers who bring in a couple of billion quid a year to the country. In Britain, anyone can have a conversation in English and without some standards it'd be a free for all.
The schools which have accreditation in the UK are supposed to be run to high standards with career development, expanding material sets, regular observations and whatnot. In this sense the CELTA "way" makes a lot of sense.
Experience counts far more than qualifications, but experience + extreme lack of passion for what you do is way worse than not much experience but a willingness to become good. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I suppose it is a bit like everything else though. Why do we have qualifications at all? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the dude was being modest. I think it would be hard to merely "get by" for going on 8 years, even if all one did was the bare-minimum conversation "lesson" (students talk, teacher tries not to fall asleep), as one has to maintain one's sanity and can't always be assured of reasonably fluent students to take up the slack. Plus, if we agree that conversation (or at least some aspects of it) can actually be taught (I mean taught well), why marginalize or downplay the skills that a teacher might need for it?
One use of qualifications is that they allow one to rest on one's laurels. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Gretschen wrote: |
| All in all, I think if you haven't taught before it's a really good starting point. I went on to use it in Vietnam, where a CELTA-style method is the norm and classes generally have 10-20 students. I'm starting a job in Japan in a few months so I'll be interested to see how it goes! From what I gather my classes will be much smaller. I've always found the CELTA approach more difficult with smaller numbers. If you've got 3 students who don't want to talk it can really crumble! |
A poster here http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=1135113#1135113 seems to have had completely the opposite experience in Vietnam. Wonder what sort of schools he or she worked in.
But you make a very good point about the class sizes being generally smaller, and thus the dynamics a bit different, in Japanese eikaiwa. (It's the perfect opportunity to try out a different approach!). And your point about the CELTA coming in later in those countries that may demand it and/or post-cert experience is also something to bear in mind. I always say go for it if finances allow and books aren't quite doing it for you. The only thing I might add is that getting a top grade on the cert (the CELTA has top grade of A, runner-up good B, then bog-standard ungraded mere Pass) will be easier if one has got a bit of teaching experience beforehand. |
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Gretschen
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Gretschen wrote: |
| All in all, I think if you haven't taught before it's a really good starting point. I went on to use it in Vietnam, where a CELTA-style method is the norm and classes generally have 10-20 students. I'm starting a job in Japan in a few months so I'll be interested to see how it goes! From what I gather my classes will be much smaller. I've always found the CELTA approach more difficult with smaller numbers. If you've got 3 students who don't want to talk it can really crumble! |
A poster here http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=1135113#1135113 seems to have had completely the opposite experience in Vietnam. Wonder what sort of schools he or she worked in.
But you make a very good point about the class sizes being generally smaller, and thus the dynamics a bit different, in Japanese eikaiwa. (It's the perfect opportunity to try out a different approach!). And your point about the CELTA coming in later in those countries that may demand it and/or post-cert experience is also something to bear in mind. I always say go for it if finances allow and books aren't quite doing it for you. The only thing I might add is that getting a top grade on the cert (the CELTA has top grade of A, runner-up good B, then bog-standard ungraded mere Pass) will be easier if one has got a bit of teaching experience beforehand. |
I'm guessing that guy was outside of the big chains. The two schools that run the CELTA in 'nam are also the two biggest chain schools. People often call them 'teacher factories', as a lot of people come over to take the course and ultimately end up working for the same school. Like a big CELTA conveyor belt.
I definitely agree with your point about the grades. I think everyone who had prior experience on my course received a 'B'. It can also work in the opposite direction, though, where teachers are too stubborn to alter their ways. It is, after all, a course which teaches a specific methodology which you are expected to follow for the duration of the course. It's really not that hard to just do what they say for 4 weeks. You can always go back to your old ways after the program if you feel they are more effective. I've heard of some people really digging their heels in and failing the course because of it. In my opinion it's just way too expensive to screw around like that! |
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Gretschen
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Gretschen wrote: |
| as he got by for a long time in Korea pretty much just teaching conversation classes. |
Sorry to be briefly picking up again on one of my fave topics, but I always find this particular dichotomy interesting and somewhat revealing (not that you're the one really posing the dichotomy, Gretschen!). It's as if those who are certified and claim to be actually teaching anything worthwhile relating to speech somehow do so through another medium "entirely" (a superior Vulcan Mind-meld Methodology (TM)?), while those lacking certs (or not claiming any particular debt to theirs) couldn't possibly teach anything of use in the overall context of what might on the surface of it appear just a nice friendly chat (and let's not forget all the "piecemeal" acquisition going on completely outside of the obvious classrooms!). Why do students pay to be patronized and strung along so with "approved" but often pretty empty, divorced methodology? |
I didn't mean to imply that CELTA gives you some kind of superpower! I think he was just referring to the fact the job he took in 'nam required teachers to focus a lot more heavily on things like grammar and exam prep, which he'd just never really had to deal with before. Even the children's classes had to incorporate Cambridge exam prep. And there was a lot more lesson planning involved (longer classes, more students, no pre-planned lessons). I don't think this is at all related to whether you have a CELTA or not. A one month course won't teach you all English grammar, or the structure of an IELTS test. Ultimately you learn this stuff on the job, and he felt his working environment in Korea just hadn't required it. I'm sure there are schools in Korea that do require this stuff.
I think, for me anyway, dealing with big classes is a very different skill to dealing with small classes. I've taught at schools in Vietnam and Australia, which both followed very similar structures. I really freak out when I end up with a class of fewer than about 6 students, and this is a something I'd like to improve on. I can't even imagine teaching one-on-one! I'm really curious about what Japan will be like, and whether my experience will be at all helpful/relevant. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Gretschen wrote: |
| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Gretschen wrote: |
| as he got by for a long time in Korea pretty much just teaching conversation classes. |
Sorry to be briefly picking up again on one of my fave topics, but I always find this particular dichotomy interesting and somewhat revealing (not that you're the one really posing the dichotomy, Gretschen!). It's as if those who are certified and claim to be actually teaching anything worthwhile relating to speech somehow do so through another medium "entirely" (a superior Vulcan Mind-meld Methodology (TM)?), while those lacking certs (or not claiming any particular debt to theirs) couldn't possibly teach anything of use in the overall context of what might on the surface of it appear just a nice friendly chat (and let's not forget all the "piecemeal" acquisition going on completely outside of the obvious classrooms!). Why do students pay to be patronized and strung along so with "approved" but often pretty empty, divorced methodology? |
I didn't mean to imply that CELTA gives you some kind of superpower! I think he was just referring to the fact the job he took in 'nam required teachers to focus a lot more heavily on things like grammar and exam prep, which he'd just never really had to deal with before. Even the children's classes had to incorporate Cambridge exam prep. And there was a lot more lesson planning involved (longer classes, more students, no pre-planned lessons). I don't think this is at all related to whether you have a CELTA or not. A one month course won't teach you all English grammar, or the structure of an IELTS test. Ultimately you learn this stuff on the job, and he felt his working environment in Korea just hadn't required it. I'm sure there are schools in Korea that do require this stuff.
I think, for me anyway, dealing with big classes is a very different skill to dealing with small classes. I've taught at schools in Vietnam and Australia, which both followed very similar structures. I really freak out when I end up with a class of fewer than about 6 students, and this is a something I'd like to improve on. I can't even imagine teaching one-on-one! I'm really curious about what Japan will be like, and whether my experience will be at all helpful/relevant. |
As far as I can understand this depends on who you're working for. But most seem to use in-house methodology. And then it depends how strict that is.
Do you know?
Personally I took a job teaching young kids here and then took the Trinity Young Learner course, and to be honest this was a huge help as I could think about it a little more deeply and got tons of ideas. if you dont wanna do that then as man in this thread says, read up about it. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
I guess the dude was being modest. I think it would be hard to merely "get by" for going on 8 years, even if all one did was the bare-minimum conversation "lesson" (students talk, teacher tries not to fall asleep), as one has to maintain one's sanity and can't always be assured of reasonably fluent students to take up the slack. Plus, if we agree that conversation (or at least some aspects of it) can actually be taught (I mean taught well), why marginalize or downplay the skills that a teacher might need for it?
One use of qualifications is that they allow one to rest on one's laurels. |
If it was your school would you be willing to give him more money though? I think for me I'd be putting him through a rigorous round of interviews and probably make him do a few trial classes before I could say he hasn't been just coasting |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:12 am Post subject: |
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@Gretschen: Ah, exam prep classes. I can see how that might come as a shock lol.
Regarding really smaller classes (say 3 or 4 at most), you just have to take them under your wing that bit more, and try to give each student some "one-to-one" time whilst also then trying to involve each with what the other's said. But when there are only 2 or 3 coming to a class regularly they could well know each other from outside the class anyway, and have made a point of coming together to support each other's learning. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| @RM1983: If I was an employer with a vacancy that needed filling pronto and a continuously-employed candidate (with say most recently, years plural at one conversation school) could answer well in interview, then sure, I'd consider employing him. It would help though if I were running a conversation school lol. |
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Gretschen
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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@RM1983 Yeah, it'll be ECC. Sounds like it's all pre-planned, scripted lessons. I'm fine with that to be honest.
I actually took the Young Learner extension to CELTA in Vietnam. My school ran the course and offered it for cheap to its teachers. They'd also bump you up a scale if you had it, which was nice. It was really useful! A lot of great, practical activity ideas. I'd definitely recommend doing it after having taught kids for at least a few months. I think it's more meaningful that way. |
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