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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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My take on it is that personally I would go with Linguistics (my favorite courses were the theoretical linguistics courses). That said, in your position, with your goals, I would go with the cheaper option.
The reality is that a few people may consider it a smidge less 'something' than the ApLing, but it won't affect your pay... that will be equal. Once you are a year or two or three down the line, your experience becomes more significant as to both pay and what the employers want.
Most university employers seem to require an MA + a few years of experience, and even those who don't require it will put a related MA to the top of the pile.
VS |
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SENTINEL33
Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 112
Location: Bahrain
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
No, they're all not like that. I know a half dozen---men and women---at different universities who are responsible for recruiting (reviewing CVs), interviewing, and hiring. |
It is with trepidation that I question the formidable and astute NomadSoul's comments, but I feel I must.
There are always exceptions, of course. NS may truly know half a dozen native academics who can indeed make a hiring judgement based on their knowledge of the EFL "field".
But the fact remains that the vast majority of those doing the actual hiring of ESL teachers at KSA workplaces, be they universities, the military or within the private sector, know diddly about the ESL/linguistics field or that it even exists and, more importantly, what they should be on the look-out for in the selection process.
That's just the academic side of it. Then you have what you might call the "personnel" side of it. Another "black hole" as far as the locals are concerned.....they simply don't know what they're doing or how to judge a "westerner".
That's why you get near-criminals, basket cases, professional imbibers, losers, misfits and on down the line of western "castoffs" all holding "Tefl certificates" from "Thailand" and so on, populating ESL depts. up and down the coasts of Araby. It's a veritable circus of sad characters completely unprepared to function in just about any soil, let alone in the Gulf. (am I being too forthright and rough?)
As I said before, don't believe anything you read on these public boards and be wary of any claims to "expertise"
Last edited by SENTINEL33 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Yep... another wannabe teacher |
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| FrogHunter wrote: |
[...]Say I was targeting Saudi/M.E (assume I have two years experience under my belt); what MA would be more favourable (both are from very reputable Universities in London, neither are distance learning)?
MA English Language Teaching (inc alumni discount, £3,700)
MA Applied Linguistics for Language Teaching (£4,700)
Is it worth paying the extra £1k for the ‘Applied Linguistics’ course?
Thanks in advance. |
I personally find it extremely difficult to take seriously anything that that is more than a training certificate and has TEFL/TESOL and similar in its name. "Sorry," but one does not need a MASTER'S DEGREE(!!!) to teach English. That's almost as big a joke as a doctorate in education and such. So: CELTA, yes, by all means, or a Trinity Certificate. A master's though? No.
Applied linguistics will actually teach you about the intricacies of language, the science behind its acquisition, the vagaries of its usage from a more sociological perspective, etc. As someone mentioned, it is quite theoretical, but that is what a degree - particularly at graduate level - is supposed to be. If you want something practical, you get vocational training.
You will recoup the extra $1,500 quickly enough once you start working, and if you care about your self-esteem, you'll be thanking yourself for doing an actual academic course.
Now pray suffer me make a hasty exit before I start getting pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes for saying the above! |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SENTINEL33 wrote: |
| As I said before, don't believe anything you read on these public boards and be wary of any claims to "expertise" |
That would include yourself. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Yep... another wannabe teacher |
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| mashkif wrote: |
but one does not need a MASTER'S DEGREE(!!!) to teach English.
Applied linguistics will actually teach you about the intricacies of language, the science behind its acquisition, the vagaries of its usage from a more sociological perspective, etc. |
No rotten eggs, but while you are correct that one does not NEED an MA to teach English, the fact is that your opinion (and mine) doesn't matter in the least. If an employer is of the opinion that an MA is required... it is.
From what I have seen, an "Applied Linguistics" MA often isn't all that theoretical. It is rather a combination of a traditional teaching methodology course with a few theoretical Linguistics courses tossed in where one can choose which courses. In my MA, one had the choice to go all methodology or a couple methodology courses plus a selection of theoretical courses. (my choice)
As far as the difference between the advice of Sentinel and Nomad Soul, I believe that the variance is that NS, like me, is usually speaking of university teaching - which isn't the majority of teaching positions in Saudi Arabia (but tend to be the majority in much of the Gulf). As a male, Sentinel's experience is more varied - I'm guessing lots of military and oil related education.
VS |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
As far as the difference between the advice of Sentinel and Nomad Soul, I believe that the variance is that NS, like me, is usually speaking of university teaching - which isn't the majority of teaching positions in Saudi Arabia (but tend to be the majority in much of the Gulf). As a male, Sentinel's experience is more varied - I'm guessing lots of military and oil related education.
VS |
Perhaps it depends on which department you're in at university, and maybe somewhat the specific university also. However, my experience in interviewing with universities was not much different from other interviews in the region Sentinel's comments were pretty much on target for nearly all of them.
Also, I found that when I taught at university in KSA, I had significantly less opportunity to bring any formal preparation to the actual teaching. There were all manner of ostentatious ancillary programs to fit in that were thought up by obsequious dimwits, who had unsurprisingly easily impressed the Saudi administrators thru all manner of shameless stupidities. It was a general all-out parade of fools actually. And the mounds of paperwork, the sole aim of which was to try to authenticate something that in about every way imaginable was irredeemable. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Yep... another wannabe teacher |
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| Quote: |
| As far as the difference between the advice of Sentinel and Nomad Soul, I believe that the variance is that NS, like me, is usually speaking of university teaching - which isn't the majority of teaching positions in Saudi Arabia (but tend to be the majority in much of the Gulf). As a male, Sentinel's experience is more varied - I'm guessing lots of military and oil related education. |
My recruiting/hiring perspective is based on my experience as a university direct hire and not as an employee of a company that's contracted with the Saudi military or an oil company. Plus, my interviews were held at TESOL Arabia's job fair, so I met with employers face-to-face. But yes, individual experiences vary, which is why generalizations aren't helpful nor cool. |
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FrogHunter
Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Posts: 7
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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 I think I should get into plumbing instead... |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Or you could go to TESOL Arabia and meet the real, big cheeses face to face . . . or was that the real big cheeses?
' '
As NS has said, people have vastly different experiences here, but let's remember that experience is not only what transpires but what is made of it. |
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cultofpersonality
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| The Saudis have to take themselves seriously at some points. They know that some native speaking teachers have some knowledge gaps which can be insufficient for certain roles, especially the university ones. You wouldn't let someone with only a bachelors teach you at University...why should the Saudis? Of course...people can point to their inferior education system but they are under no directive to make it even worse employing teachers without credentials. How many universities in the UK, even within their English Language programmes employ ESL lecturers without a Masters'? Hardly any! Asking for Masters' is just common sense university protocol. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Yep... another wannabe teacher |
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| mashkif wrote: |
I personally find it extremely difficult to take seriously anything that that is more than a training certificate and has TEFL/TESOL and similar in its name. "Sorry," but one does not need a MASTER'S DEGREE(!!!) to teach English. |
A Bachelor's in Literature would definitely help in Conversational English when you're teaching advanced learners. We have someone where I work that has a Literature degree and is pretty good at knowing every way of saying something. For advanced learners an English degree would be very valuable. Although in all fairness the value of a Master's degree was being discussed not a Bachelor's. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| cultofpersonality wrote: |
| The Saudis have to take themselves seriously at some points. They know that some native speaking teachers have some knowledge gaps which can be insufficient for certain roles, especially the university ones. You wouldn't let someone with only a bachelors teach you at University...why should the Saudis? Of course...people can point to their inferior education system but they are under no directive to make it even worse employing teachers without credentials. How many universities in the UK, even within their English Language programmes employ ESL lecturers without a Masters'? Hardly any! Asking for Masters' is just common sense university protocol. |
That is all true and (this is also in response to Veiled Sentiments) I'm not suggesting that the employers are unreasonable to be expecting even English language (mechanics) instructors to have earned a master's degree. I did go off on a tangent up there, but my point actually concerned the value - real or perceived - of a master's in applied linguistics versus a master's in T.E.F.L. and the like.
Bottom line (in my view): If you're going to cough up thousands of bucks for a master's degree and spend at least a year and a half pursuing it, an extra $1,500 for doing it in applied linguistics is certainly worth it. I mean, not for nothing, but can one really declare with genuine pride "I have a master's degree in T.E.F.L."!?  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mashkif wrote: |
I personally find it extremely difficult to take seriously anything that that is more than a training certificate and has TEFL/TESOL and similar in its name. "Sorry," but one does not need a MASTER'S DEGREE(!!!) to teach English. That's almost as big a joke as a doctorate in education and such. So: CELTA, yes, by all means, or a Trinity Certificate. A master's though? No.
Applied linguistics will actually teach you about the intricacies of language, the science behind its acquisition, the vagaries of its usage from a more sociological perspective, etc. As someone mentioned, it is quite theoretical, but that is what a degree - particularly at graduate level - is supposed to be. If you want something practical, you get vocational training. |
However, applied ling doesn't focus on teaching, per your explanation. But since you find it hard to understand why many employers are interested in teachers with MAs in ELT or TESOL or... Consider that some job ads specify curriculum design, materials development, test creation, etc.---skills and knowledge relevant to teaching and education---as preferred or desired.
| and wrote: |
I'm not suggesting that the employers are unreasonable to be expecting even English language (mechanics) instructors to have earned a master's degree. I did go off on a tangent up there, but my point actually concerned the value - real or perceived - of a master's in applied linguistics versus a master's in T.E.F.L. and the like.
Bottom line (in my view): If you're going to cough up thousands of bucks for a master's degree and spend at least a year and a half pursuing it, an extra $1,500 for doing it in applied linguistics is certainly worth it. I mean, not for nothing, but can one really declare with genuine pride "I have a master's degree in T.E.F.L."!? |
The MA in TESOL focuses on pedagogy (i.e., the art/science of teaching); whereas, the MA in Applied Linguistics is heavy on theory and language research. If you simply look at the two fields based on face value alone, obviously, the MA in TESOL makes more sense for a teaching position because it targets teaching and learning. But it appears you're into the "prestige" factor some seem to think an MA in Applied Linguistics exudes. Frankly, I've always maintained that the coursework or program's content is more important than the name of the major/discipline as programs do vary. Anyway, choosing a major is a personal choice and if it gets the degree holder the job they want, then it was the right academic path for that individual, and that's what gives a degree value.
By the way, some universities are starting to combine the two into one degree program, as in an MA in Applied Linguistics and TESOL, which makes sense because there's usually some course overlap between the two. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| But it appears you're into the "prestige" factor some seem to think an MA in Applied Linguistics exudes. |
I've been on hiring committees for a couple of western universities on and off for a decade. We prefer the MA TESL/TEFL over MA Ap. Ling for a number of reasons, not the least being that knowing a lot about the language is by no means any indication that one can convey the knowledge effectively. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But it appears you're into the "prestige" factor some seem to think an MA in Applied Linguistics exudes. |
I've been on hiring committees for a couple of western universities on and off for a decade. We prefer the MA TESL/TEFL over MA Ap. Ling for a number of reasons, not the least being that knowing a lot about the language is by no means any indication that one can convey the knowledge effectively. |
And learning how to teach (or, even better, the theories theorists have posited about how to teach) IS an indication of one's ability to "convey the knowledge effectively"?!
To the best of my knowledge - and please do correct me if I am mistaken - the preponderance of "master's degrees" in T.E.S.O.L. and similar do not contain a practical component. That means that not only do you not actually stand in front of a classroom for dozens of hours applying those facocta theories, but you don't even learn ABOUT the language, certainly not anywhere near the extent to which you do with applied linguistics.
And let me tell you something about those so-called theories. Various failed and/or bored academic came up with dozens of these supposedly enlightened and revolutionary pedagogical methods (*snicker*). Audiovisual, audiolingual, grammar translation (the big bugaboo), suggestopedia, direct, cognitive, immersion, silent, natural, and literally dozens of others. You can know them all inside-out and still be no better or worse instructor than someone who never heard even the word pedagogy. Not only that, but all these methods notwithstanding, the ineluctable old truth remains: If you want to acquire knowledge (foreign languages included) quickly and effectively, there is NO substitute to YOU (the student's) sitting your ass down and doing some good old-fashioned memorization. Period. |
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