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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| ...I saw changes in them, from Plane Janes to classy madams with monthly change of hair colors, Arabic style eyebrows and make up, smooth body and face by all laser hair removal and procedures, acrylic nails, sexy abayas, and they get invited and popular at compound parties, desert trips, embassy parties, at fancy restaurants, oh you name it, on weekends, and they would come back to work with full of energy, fresh and do well at work...our country girls prefer Arabic and high end men to party with... |
Sounds like the desert heat was causing you to hallucinate and possibly see some sort of mirage... 
And no, as a woman, that also wasn't my reason for heading to KSA.  |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
Keep in mind who hired these native speakers and what motivated such a consistent hiring of duds for management positions. I agree that most managers are usually hapless, problematic individuals without a clue, but didn't you ever wonder why there was such a consistency in hiring useless people to management positions in KSA, or why the worst of the lot would usually rise so quickly to the top. If you wish to grow a culture in the lab you must create the right conditions; these people could never ask for better conditions than those offered in KSA. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| ...I saw changes in them, from Plane Janes to classy madams with monthly change of hair colors, Arabic style eyebrows and make up, smooth body and face by all laser hair removal and procedures, acrylic nails, sexy abayas, and they get invited and popular at compound parties, desert trips, embassy parties, at fancy restaurants, oh you name it, on weekends, and they would come back to work with full of energy, fresh and do well at work...our country girls prefer Arabic and high end men to party with... |
Sounds like the desert heat was causing you to hallucinate and possibly see some sort of mirage... |
I've noticed in both Kuwait and Oman that the camels and goats get prettier after a few months in the desert....a friend reported the same about penguins when he was on an Antartic expedition..... |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
I've noticed in both Kuwait and Oman that the camels and goats get prettier after a few months in the desert....a friend reported the same about penguins when he was on an Antartic expedition..... |
The same thing evidently happens in certain localities with sheep, hence the name Sheepshagger. |
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Betrayer of Hope
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
Location: in a dark place
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| rollingk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
Keep in mind who hired these native speakers and what motivated such a consistent hiring of duds for management positions. I agree that most managers are usually hapless, problematic individuals without a clue, but didn't you ever wonder why there was such a consistency in hiring useless people to management positions in KSA, or why the worst of the lot would usually rise so quickly to the top. If you wish to grow a culture in the lab you must create the right conditions; these people could never ask for better conditions than those offered in KSA. |
I think much of the blame should go to the Saudis who are responsible for many of the education policies of the institute. Even with competent managers from the west, the parameters for them to work and operate efficiently are quite narrow. Now, there are some places where local Arabs are hired to manage westerners, and I think we all know how disastrous that turns out to be. |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul, are you a woman? I only saw their FB pages and all those parties and pics. They also do weekend trips to Qatar, Bahrain and Dubai..I guess " pictures worth a thousand words". My only point is to advise new comers that if one hangs out with people "in the know", then they will be safe and can have fun in the sun..also it also depends on the age group. Someone mentioned here before ( sorry, I don't know where to find that post or by whom) that " choose your master carefully" and I would also say " choose your group carefully once you are in KSA". Only then, one could/ would have abundance of fun and colleagues would cover your a_ _ at workplace if you are in it together. "I know it all ( work stuff) and you dont" kid of attitude will not work. "let's make 2 worngs" might work better. Many posters here have mentioned many times " serious teaching in KSA? think again".. to make $$ and have fun, ok welcome" because everything is pre-arranged and pre-decided.. |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| rollingk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
Keep in mind who hired these native speakers and what motivated such a consistent hiring of duds for management positions. I agree that most managers are usually hapless, problematic individuals without a clue, but didn't you ever wonder why there was such a consistency in hiring useless people to management positions in KSA, or why the worst of the lot would usually rise so quickly to the top. If you wish to grow a culture in the lab you must create the right conditions; these people could never ask for better conditions than those offered in KSA. |
That's true.
It was an environment in which, I think, people were promoted without having any experience in questioning what was being done, and so they just went on in preserving the status quo. I think there were people there who could have functioned much better somewhere else. |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| hieroglyphs wrote: |
| rollingk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
Keep in mind who hired these native speakers and what motivated such a consistent hiring of duds for management positions.
| Quote: |
| I agree that most managers are usually hapless, problematic individuals without a clue |
, but didn't you ever wonder why there was such a consistency in hiring useless people to management positions in KSA, or why the worst of the lot would usually rise so quickly to the top. If you wish to grow a culture in the lab you must create the right conditions; these people could never ask for better conditions than those offered in KSA. |
That's true.
It was an environment in which, I think, people were promoted without having any experience in questioning what was being done, and so they just went on in preserving the status quo. I think there were people there who could have functioned much better somewhere else. |
On the point of hapless people in management, though, I think that is an unfair generalization. Even in the place that I worked at in KSA, it really was only the academic coordinator who was incompetent among the people in management. |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| hieroglyphs wrote: |
| hieroglyphs wrote: |
| rollingk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
Keep in mind who hired these native speakers and what motivated such a consistent hiring of duds for management positions.
| Quote: |
| I agree that most managers are usually hapless, problematic individuals without a clue |
, but didn't you ever wonder why there was such a consistency in hiring useless people to management positions in KSA, or why the worst of the lot would usually rise so quickly to the top. If you wish to grow a culture in the lab you must create the right conditions; these people could never ask for better conditions than those offered in KSA. |
That's true.
It was an environment in which, I think, people were promoted without having any experience in questioning what was being done, and so they just went on in preserving the status quo. I think there were people there who could have functioned much better somewhere else. |
On the point of hapless people in management, though, I think that is an unfair generalization. Even in the place that I worked at in KSA, it really was only the academic coordinator who was incompetent among the people in management. |
And whoever put him in that position.(I'm sure that rollingk was preparing to add this, so I'll save you the trouble ) |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:03 am Post subject: |
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delete
Last edited by coder on Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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WEll Coder, that just simply takes the cake and cuts to the quick. You've trampled on many sensitive little toes. I, as I'm sure others, had thought I was doing big things in KSA.
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
But in fact, that's not the reason they were hired...
...you cannot take a job in KSA seriously. If you do, you're bound to be disappointed.
....just look at KSA.
Or, just look at ESL. Can one really classify it as a "profession" with a straight face? |
Dissent presented as the sole comprehension is a conceit. Rhetoric such as "just look" and "really" assert comprehension without support. In your response, I am reading a lot of what a position in KSA is not, with no description of what it is. What defines "serious" to some does not to all. Conflating the vocation of ESL education and KSA's development is spurious. Many vocations are served by completing a tertiary degree, supplemented by training and certifications, ESL included. Developing nations balance the priorities of economic competitiveness and the loss of traditions and autonomy. It is a slow, generational process.
I was there for 3 years. I certainly did teach English and some students certainly did practice and improve. And I facilitated a greater involvement of women in testing procedures. So, yay for me. I'm only saying I'm qualified to dispute your post.
Now, all that said, I think MANY ex-pats out of KSA know exactly what you're talking about, myself included. The ongoing reforms are expansive, so naturally people will disagree about a pace. And education, unfortuantely everywhere, is more severely and prescriptively managed than ever before. Anyone teaching for a little while comes to understand how administrators can cripple a program and far more rarely enable it.
So much development is going on at such basic levels, there is no end to what can be accomplished. It's a blank check if your accounting isn't "changing the system to what it should be" but taking stock of what meager gains can be addressed.
But it's not for everybody, that's for sure. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
Or, just look at ESL. Can one really classify it as a "profession" with a straight face? |
It depends upon where you are teaching. There are places in Asia, where if you teach there, you're teaching is real teaching, and you are a professional. Although those places are far and few between.
Like most people would readily understand, the reason I teach in Saudi Arabia is for the money, pure and simple. It could be for the money and to be an ESL teacher, but I am not the one responsible for eliminating that possibility. Regarding Thailand, with the exception of the four 'top tier' schools in BKK and a small handful of other exceptions, teaching is done simply to allow the person to be in Thailand, pure and simple. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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My personal definition of "professional" is anyone in any job who knows what he/she is doing very well and who always puts forth his/her best effort.
In my opinion, one can be a "professional street sweeper"; on the other hand, one can also be an unprofessional brain surgeon."
Regards,
Jphn |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
My personal definition of "professional" is anyone in any job who knows what he/she is doing very well and who always puts forth his/her best effort.
In my opinion, one can be a "professional street sweeper"; on the other hand, one can also be an unprofessional brain surgeon."
Regards,
Jphn |
I couldn't agree more.
There are most certainly jobs out there that can make us feel that we are a member of a "profession", and can give us satisfaction. Sweeping judgements do not change that. |
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