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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mysterytrain wrote: |
| In terms of "you've got to spend money to make money", the potential return on investment from CELTA seems limited compared with either standing pat (no investment) and choosing from the opportunities which present themselves, or going the fuller route of iPGCE, MA-TESOL, QTS in the home country, etc, which might put me in the running for higher paying IS jobs (not top tier ones, but a higher salary bracket, anyway). |
I'm not sure this is necessarily the case. It depends how long-term you're thinking. A CELTA by itself will give a small boost to your earnings in most new countries, but a CELTA plus 2 years experience opens up a lot more opportunities for higher paying jobs. In Saigon, for example, a common route is CELTA, 2 years at ILA or Apollo, and then apply for RMIT, where you're earning roughly $3k a month. I'm sure plenty of other countries/cities have similar paths available. It's also a prerequisite for the DELTA, which opens up management roles if you're interested in that. And I'm sure there are people who can earn just as much with no qualifications at all, but it's much harder, and even more difficult to then replicate it in another country. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Good evening, Vietnam (and, what are my chances) |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| Vietnam is highly unstable and/or anti-social work hours of the language schools of evenings and 20-30 hour marathon "weekends". |
Considering your description of your "location", I'm guessing that means you are not in Vietnam... or are you just trying to throw me off the track? 
| Quote: |
| If you are willing to go back to China, EF has some really solid packages, if you do a 2 year contract you can get a TKT, Trinity Cert and/or a Trinity Dip. paid for, a nice salary of about $2,100 plus bennies like health insurance, which doesn't seem to matter as much when you're in your 20's or even 30's but it sure is a concern for anybody over 40 and if you have a family (your wife) it's an important concern. |
I'm definitely considering going back to China, in fact it may be the most likely option, this far out anyway. I think the three options that are clearly the wiser choices, purely in immediate financial terms, are China, ROK, or staying put. I wanted to leave the last time (a year ago) and was looking around at jobs in China in Turkey, but ended up deciding that staying two more years was the most practical move for the family (guaranteed ability to save a known amount and all that).
I check the ads for various EF franchises in China from time to time. Some of them are very vague about salary, others more specific. I certainly haven't seen anything like what you've quoted here, but I suppose it may be what they are really willing to offer, assuming they are willing to recognize my experience. On the other foot, I do know that salaries that high are quite possible in China if one is willing to work a bit harder for them. Anyway I would be willing to consider EF in China. They have a lot of groups and schools here in Indonesia, but here they pay crapola. As far as language training schools here, WSI is the only one that really pays well, and I'm already at that level where I am.
I had a few emails with a recruiter for Disney English three years ago when I was still in China and then back in the States briefly. They were interested in taking me on but said they couldn't because they required two years' experience (I think they may have backed off that standard since, but not sure, anyway I'll have five years when my current contract runs out). I would still consider biting the bullet and working for the evil mouse empire for a 12 to 15 month contract, because they really do offer a nice package (on paper, at least); High salary + housing allowance + flight reimbursed + training bonus + medical and permits, etc. Whether it would be worth it to put up with their faceless corporate atmosphere and culture (that's how I imagine it anyway, and I think it can't be all that far from the truth) and jump through their hoops and long hours at the office, I don't know, but I think I could really save a good amount working for them, even in a year or so. I've been in school 45 to 50 hours a week for the last three years, so I'm definitely used to having put the "hippie teaching" days behind me (not that I would never go back to them if I had the chance / choice, but as noted, I've got a family now. My wife's family depend on me for some support as well).
My understanding is that schools in ROK pay about what you mentioned on average, plus housing, medical etc, so that would be a comparable situation although I expect COL is a bit higher than in China, even with free housing. Still, I'm sure I could save a good chuck of change there too. I have much less knowledge and familiarity with what teaching there is actually like than say, China or Turkey.
Anyway, China and Korea are definitely smarter "next moves" I think, since I can get my flight from the States reimbursed. It wouldn't make all that much difference if we were coming directly from Indonesia, but my current school will pay my fare back to the US, and I do need to go home for awhile plus I want to take my wife (I went for three weeks a year ago, which my school paid for, but wife stayed here).
As far as two year contracts, i'd prefer to stay away from those for a few years, but if the price was right I would consider doing it again. Two years is a long time to essentially lose your freedom of choice and mobility... I've done it twice now already.
Last edited by mysterytrain on Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| skarper wrote: |
| Very many older, experienced but untrained teachers really struggle with a CELTA course and quite a few fail or fail to complete the coursework - the workload is extreme for 4 weeks. |
That's true, but I think a lot of that is down to attitude. We had some people who'd been teaching for a while on our course. Some of them were great and really open to new ideas, whereas others thought that because they'd be teaching (unqualified) for a while, they already knew everything and were not open to any criticism of their teaching practice. I think as long as you pretend you're learning from scratch, then you'll be fine. You can always take what you find useful and discard the rest after the course. |
Do you mean pretend to myself, or pretend to the course givers?
I can definitely see the benefit in the former in terms of having the right attitude to get through the course, although it might fall into the category of "easier said than done".
Would there be any benefit in doing the other one? I'd think even if I neglected to mention I'd been teaching for five years, they might could tell I wasn't a true rookie... so I guess "easier said than done" again. I think you meant the first route, though. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mysterytrain wrote: |
| Do you mean pretend to myself, or pretend to the course givers? |
Yeah, pretend to yourself. What I really mean is don't be precious about your current teaching style, expect aspects of it to be criticised, so try and take the criticism/advice like someone who's never taught before. A few people's first response to any criticism on my CELTA course was to come out swinging and argue with every aspect of it. It gets really tiresome after a while, especially when everyone could clearly see that the advice was justified and relevant.
Incidentally, I think even experienced teachers can get a lot of benefit from teaching other people's lesson plans occasionally, because it forces you to try someone else's approach to teaching, and gives you aspects that you can draw on and add to your own teaching. So if you treat the CELTA as a month-long experiment in teaching someone else's style (which is probably fairly similar to what you do already, because none of it is rocket science), you'll probably get a lot out of it. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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A CELTA course is still an INITIATION into EFL teaching - it is a basic toolkit of techniques and methods and some content based learning (e.g. phonemic script and grammar metalanguage) that you just have swallow hook line and sinker for the 4-5 weeks they have you at their mercy. If you don't do what they say you will fail - simple as that.
That said - for the most part it is better than the ragbag of techniques and knowledge most untrained teachers have cobbled together over a few years so they really should jettison them and at least give the new ideas a chance.
I think any analysis of the theory behind it has really to be part of an MA level course. Dips are MA level (officially this is the case though they are not research based so a different animal) but even then there is not much scope for arguing about basic method. Dips seem to be another run through the CELTA material but with a much higher level of mastery required - that's what I remember of mine anyway. In a Cert you just have to know about the stuff - the idea being you will follow up on it later when you have a chance to use it in class.
Some older experienced people do splendidly of course and some younger people are just hopeless - it is indeed a question of attitude. The OP will I'm sure be able to judge and perhaps adjust his attitude if necessary. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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From a quick look around, the CELTYL does not seem to exist anymore as a standalone course (maybe it does, but I haven't been able to find one). International House offers a TEYL or some such, but it seems also to be an extension to the basic TEFL rather than a standalone course, and it doesn't seem to be offered anywhere in Asia.
TEFL International run a 120 hour course in Surabaya which says it is focused on YL, but then it's... TEFL International. Not the most reputable outfit or well-recognized cert. |
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Mr. Leafy
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 246
Location: North of the Wall
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mysterytrain wrote: |
| From a quick look around, the CELTYL does not seem to exist anymore as a standalone course (maybe it does, but I haven't been able to find one). ... |
As far as I know, the YL extension to CELTA has always been that - an extension. There other YL focussed courses around.
If you do want to do the extension, Cambridge Exams lists various centres in 40 countries, including at least 8 in Asia including Vietnam.
http://www.cambridgeenglish.org/find-a-centre/find-a-teaching-centre/ |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks to all for the detailed replies, the info and advice are very helpful to me. As noted, it's a long way out from the time when I will need to be making decisions, and a lot can change in that time, but this gives me some solid food for thought, which was what I was looking for. Vietnam is still on my list, but I will take all factors into consideration. Thanks again. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Update (nine months later):
It's been unofficially settled for quite some time, but I think it's definitely safe at this point to say that I WON'T be coming to Vietnam to teach - not this year, and maybe never. Mostly based on the following scenario, as summarized succinctly by skarper in another thread, and addressed to a more recent OP:
| Quote: |
| Wages are falling, the market is saturated and the visa situation a quagmire at present - but if you are sure you want to come or have only worse options then by all means give it a go. |
My interest in living in Vietnam hasn't really lessened, but the "problem" is that I DO have better options, from an economic perspective, significantly better at that.
I have an offer from a language school in China which will pay between 1900 - 2400 USD (equivalent in yuan), depending on the number of classes taught per month, with the lower end of the salary range based on the minimum (guaranteed) teaching hours. That's take-home pay, plus free apartment and partially subsidized utilities, plus airfare allowance at the end of the contract.
Basically this would allow me to save the equivalent of the TOTAL of my current take-home pay, almost every month, at a minimum, while still living comfortably, compared with taking home maybe 1000 - 1200 USD a month in Vietnam, and paying at least 300 of that for rent, plus utilities ... the numbers just don't add up.
The wife and I actually went to China in December, met the owner and saw the school, and I'm now in process of applying for the work visa.
So I just want to say thanks again for the information and advice I got here several months back. A few of ye old hands said it, I'm probably better off either staying put or heading back to China - you were right, and I'm making the smarter choice here and taking that advice.
I guess we'll have to settle for a longer Vietnam holiday during one of the two months off per calendar year (that's the one low spot in the contract - the two holiday months are basically unpaid - but what I'll save in the other ten will make up for it well enough), roughly February (Spring Festival) and August.
Still at Square One in terms of the PD ... I'll probably just keep floating by for at least another year or two, since I've had no problem finding work with the meager qual's I've got. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Nice to get an update - hope it works out well.
EFL in Vietnam is not really a good option for those with dependents in tow - unless they are Vietnamese and can help with visa issues, help secure cheaper housing and so on.
The China deal seems good. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
EFL in Vietnam is not really a good option for those with dependents in tow - unless they are Vietnamese and can help with visa issues, help secure cheaper housing and so on.
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Yes, having an Indonesian spouse has certainly given me that kind of advantage here as well, but it definitely does not "translate" to other countries.
The funny thing is, in every Asian country we've visited - Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, China, and even Nepal - some of the locals always take her as one of the local ethnics and start jabbering away at her in languages she does not understand in the slightest ... she makes friends much more easily than I, it's just communication that's an issue.
The job in China is for 15 to 20 contact hours per week, by the way. At 200 yuan per hour, that's about 32 USD per one hour class, before figuring in "ancillary" time for prep, etc. Even at 30 to 35 hours a week working time, it's not too bad. |
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TrampledKlown
Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:57 am Post subject: What about Indonesia? |
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| Is showing up in Indonesia and looking around the best way to go about finding a good gig? |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: What about Indonesia? |
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| TrampledKlown wrote: |
| Is showing up in Indonesia and looking around the best way to go about finding a good gig? |
Not the best way in my estimation, and I didn't do it that way, but I'm sure it works out well for some folks, provided they meet government requirements (check the Indonesia forum here or the teachers chat channel at Living In Indonesia Expat Fprums).
For those who DON'T meet all the requirements, they might just get "lucky" (as I did) or they might find work under the radar so to speak, but it won't be well-paid (nor strictly legal).
For those who CAN meet or exceed the rapidly increasing requirements, there should be good pickings for jobs, particularly in K-12 schools like "SPK", 'cos lots of teachers whose qual's aren't up to snuff are being squeezed out. |
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RustyShackleford
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| From my limited research but relatively wide experience in the TEFL game, the "Show up and hunt" tactic is not a smart move for most countries, even in SE Asia. Seems like even Thailand has become ever stricter with its visa policies. Better to just grab a crappy gig and ditch it the moment something better comes along. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mysterytrain wrote: |
Update (nine months later):
It's been unofficially settled for quite some time, but I think it's definitely safe at this point to say that I WON'T be coming to Vietnam to teach - not this year, and maybe never. Mostly based on the following scenario, as summarized succinctly by skarper in another thread, and addressed to a more recent OP:
| Quote: |
| Wages are falling, the market is saturated and the visa situation a quagmire at present - but if you are sure you want to come or have only worse options then by all means give it a go. |
My interest in living in Vietnam hasn't really lessened, but the "problem" is that I DO have better options, from an economic perspective, significantly better at that.
I have an offer from a language school in China which will pay between 1900 - 2400 USD (equivalent in yuan), depending on the number of classes taught per month, with the lower end of the salary range based on the minimum (guaranteed) teaching hours. That's take-home pay, plus free apartment and partially subsidized utilities, plus airfare allowance at the end of the contract.
Basically this would allow me to save the equivalent of the TOTAL of my current take-home pay, almost every month, at a minimum, while still living comfortably, compared with taking home maybe 1000 - 1200 USD a month in Vietnam, and paying at least 300 of that for rent, plus utilities ... the numbers just don't add up.
The wife and I actually went to China in December, met the owner and saw the school, and I'm now in process of applying for the work visa.
So I just want to say thanks again for the information and advice I got here several months back. A few of ye old hands said it, I'm probably better off either staying put or heading back to China - you were right, and I'm making the smarter choice here and taking that advice.
I guess we'll have to settle for a longer Vietnam holiday during one of the two months off per calendar year (that's the one low spot in the contract - the two holiday months are basically unpaid - but what I'll save in the other ten will make up for it well enough), roughly February (Spring Festival) and August.
Still at Square One in terms of the PD ... I'll probably just keep floating by for at least another year or two, since I've had no problem finding work with the meager qual's I've got. |
In pretty much all of Asia except Vietnam (which is trying to dissuade backpacker teachers) All you need is a bachelors degree. After you've been teaching for awhile you'll have a better idea of what kind of PD you want or need (and why you only need a bachelors to get started). There are plenty of options in country and on-line.
There is no golden ticket to teaching. Read, read, read is a good start. Try to put what you learn into practice. The Coalition for Psychology in
Schools and Education has produced a pamphlet - TOP 20 PRINCIPLES FROM PSYCHOLOGY FOR Pre K–12 TEACHING AND LEARNING. It might be a good place to start once you've gotten your feet wet. It's very recent so should be easy to dl as a PDF file.
I don't have the link but I copied and pasted the title from the file. Hope that helps. |
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