Job Discussion Forums

[MuscatGary]

[nomad soul]

[BocaNY]

Ok I guess the final question I have is: Once all this done and the paperwork handed over will i get said paperwork back from the officials? Or does it depend on the country?

[MuscatGary]

[nomad soul]

[MuscatGary]

[MotherF]

I know a man who got a US (Florida) apostille on a copy of his British university degree. Mexican immigracion officials didn't even blink.

A state will apostille it's own state's documents (birth certificate, state university degrees, etc.) but it will ALSO apostille it's own Notary Public's notarized copies. And there is nothing that says what a Notary Public can or can't make a Notarized copy of. You can make you're own degree from your own personal university, and ask any Notary Public to make a notarized copy of that degree because all they are doing is certifying that this is a true photocopy of an original document. They are not certifying anything about the validity of the content of the document. Then you ask the Secretary of State of that state to check their notary records and if that notary has a valid Notary Public license from that state they will apostille that copy.

Now if I were working in an immigration office of some country and I didn't know the difference between these two types of apostilles, that's my own problem not the problem of the Americans sending me the apostilles...

[MuscatGary]

[nomad soul]

[HLJHLJ]

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what an apostille actually is. An apostille certifies the origin of a public document. That's all. There are not multiple types, they don't certify content, and they cannot certify anything else, other than country of origin and public status. If you check an actual apostille you will see that information (public document and country) at the very top of the obligatory information (the 10 numbered points inside the box).

All the rest of the information, who signed it, under what authority, etc. is extra detail. It's there to identify the person who is taking legal responsibility for the claim that it is a public document issued in that country. (Whether they actually verify it or not is a different matter, they are still taking legal responsibility for it.)

The certified copy issue is a red herring. In countries that allow certified copies to apostilled (not all do), it is based on equivalency. So once a certified copy has been created, it is treated as equivalent to the original. It does not become a new document in its own right. For the purposes of an apostille the fact that it is a copy is irrelevant, it is treated as equivalent to the original. The apostille is still certifying the same thing, that it's a public document issued in that country.

Although it is true that you can get a certified copy of any document made by a notary, you can still only get an apostille affixed to specific types of documents. That is, public documents issued by the country issuing the apostille.

This is all laid out in the Hague Convention, it's international law and individual countries have no authority to make changes to it.

So if people are saying that the USA will apostille copies of non-USA documents, then I believe it's happening. However, it's still illegal, and the USA is essentially abusing the system and issuing fake apostilles.

Regardless of whether it is a certified copy or an original, a USA issued apostille certifies that the original educational certificate is a public document that was issued in the USA. A UK educational certificate was not issued in the USA and is not a public document in the USA. Therefore, the USA has no right to apostille it and if they do so, the apostille is not legitimate.

Having said that, it doesn't surprise me at all that many officials who have to check apostilles have no idea what they are looking at. However, if you ever come across someone who does AND they actually bother to check, it will be immediately obvious that it's fake. Not only would they reject your document, but if they wanted to they could also report it had have the people involved investigated. If it was found to be a widespread problem the USA could be punished for it and in theory have the right to issue apostilles withdrawn altogether. (In reality, they would probably just be given a slap on the wrist and told to stop it).

Should anyone actually be interested you will find more information than you could ever possibly want to know about apostilles here http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=text.display&tid=37 . The ABC document is essentially the FAQs and is quite readable.

[nomad soul]

[MotherF]