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Voyeur
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431
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 Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| There is sometimes a need for blanket regulations (or even generalizations), but I don't see one here. Why can't every school be left to decide for itself if a teacher is too old? |
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Simon in Suzhou
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 404
Location: GZ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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5 years in Korea, now almost 6 in China. Wish I came to China 4 years earlier.
The teaching was fine in Korea. Everything else made me want to leave. The general unhappiness of the people (I've never been in a country where so many 25 year-olds are flat-out miserable) which leads to the rampant alcoholism, in addition to the irrational xenophobia...
Well, it was enough for me. Overall, China is more more secure about itself, MUCH friendlier, and i don't get dirty looks/obscene comments when I walk down the street with a native female.
I don't drink, and everyone I know who enjoyed Korea seemed to enjoy the drinking culture. Maybe this makes a difference. |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Voyeur wrote: |
| There is sometimes a need for blanket regulations (or even generalizations), but I don't see one here. Why can't every school be left to decide for itself if a teacher is too old? |
Many schools are hesitant to hire older teachers due to the much higher cost of health insurance. The cost for a younger teacher may be 1000RMB a year, while the cost for insurance for an older teacher can be 3000 or 4000 a year, or more.
My school does have many older teachers, but they are asked to pay the cost of their own insurance. Some of them are retired from teaching in America, and they volunteer their time at my school. They continue teaching because they find it to be very rewarding.
I have been invited to be a guest in several older teacher's classes, and I really enjoyed their classes and learned a lot from them. |
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Simon in Suzhou
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 404
Location: GZ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| rogerwilco wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| There is sometimes a need for blanket regulations (or even generalizations), but I don't see one here. Why can't every school be left to decide for itself if a teacher is too old? |
Many schools are hesitant to hire older teachers due to the much higher cost of health insurance. The cost for a younger teacher may be 1000RMB a year, while the cost for insurance for an older teacher can be 3000 or 4000 a year, or more.
My school does have many older teachers, but they are asked to pay the cost of their own insurance. Some of them are retired from teaching in America, and they volunteer their time at my school. They continue teaching because they find it to be very rewarding.
I have been invited to be a guest in several older teacher's classes, and I really enjoyed their classes and learned a lot from them. |
You young buck, Rogerwilco! Hope all is well!  |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| rogerwilco wrote: |
Many schools are hesitant to hire older teachers due to the much higher cost of health insurance. The cost for a younger teacher may be 1000RMB a year, while the cost for insurance for an older teacher can be 3000 or 4000 a year, or more.
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Maybe the older fellas could offer to pay for the health insurance, if they really want to work in Country X or Y. Obviously finding out how much it is in some innocent or sneaky way before offering to pay it... Sure, it sucks, but it could be a way of getting a job where one otherwise couldn't. I guess that could work out to roughly forfeiting a flight allowance, one way from the USA.
This is really lame because the years keep speeding by, and I know that in the blink of an eye, I'll be in this "of age" club also. God knows what the ESL scene will be like by then, if I make it. It probably won't even be worthwhile any more, with respects to the pain versus reward ratio. |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon in Suzhou wrote: |
| rogerwilco wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| There is sometimes a need for blanket regulations (or even generalizations), but I don't see one here. Why can't every school be left to decide for itself if a teacher is too old? |
Many schools are hesitant to hire older teachers due to the much higher cost of health insurance. The cost for a younger teacher may be 1000RMB a year, while the cost for insurance for an older teacher can be 3000 or 4000 a year, or more.
My school does have many older teachers, but they are asked to pay the cost of their own insurance. Some of them are retired from teaching in America, and they volunteer their time at my school. They continue teaching because they find it to be very rewarding.
I have been invited to be a guest in several older teacher's classes, and I really enjoyed their classes and learned a lot from them. |
You young buck, Rogerwilco! Hope all is well! |
All is well here, hope you are doing well also.
Some of the teachers at my school are in their 70's and 80's, so to them
I am a young buck.  |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon in Suzhou wrote: |
5 years in Korea, now almost 6 in China. Wish I came to China 4 years earlier.
The teaching was fine in Korea. Everything else made me want to leave. The general unhappiness of the people (I've never been in a country where so many 25 year-olds are flat-out miserable) which leads to the rampant alcoholism, in addition to the irrational xenophobia...
Well, it was enough for me. Overall, China is more more secure about itself, MUCH friendlier, and i don't get dirty looks/obscene comments when I walk down the street with a native female.
I don't drink, and everyone I know who enjoyed Korea seemed to enjoy the drinking culture. Maybe this makes a difference. |
Yes, that's a thing. China is secure about itself. I guess that's what we foreigners are subconsciously thinking when we refer to it as 'The Middle Kingdom'. Culturally speaking: They haven't borrowed any thing from any one. They don't owe no body nothin'! It's like they're walking around with their chests out saying,
"We're the Zhongguoren! Who the hell are you?' 
And whatever your answer, they can smile, and just say, 'Oh!" because you're just from some itty bitty country that's no threat to them and never will be. (The U.S. of what now?). That's cute! They've been around 5,000 years plus and are riding high and they're going to be here still when your country re-descends into the barbarity of having no contact with China. Poor wittle outside country person! They can afford to be friendly. (unlike the denizens of the Hermit Kingdom).
When I was in Korea and mixing among the proles, buying cheap woolens in the street market stalls, the proprietors would always smile and ask, "Rooski?"
Man! They're so backward that the only white folks they know about are Amur River dwelling worker comrades? They probably took me for a pimp. If I were a lady, what would they have thought? |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| jm21 wrote: |
That is somewhat shocking, particularly in China where the students written English is so much stroger than their oral English.
Even my mom, who is a retired teacher, had her doubts about those teaching beyond 60 or so. The brain starts to go. Simple as that.
My school had a guy in his 70's who couldn't even get to the classroom and wasn't teaching the students squat. Just waiting to die in China.
The typical Chinese worker is not a professor. The typical Chinese worker works 9-12 hours per day, 6 days a week, and has no paid vacation except for the national holidays when it is difficult to travel. I find it ridiculous that someone has lived in China and thinks that the typical worker is a Chinese professor. By the way, a lot of old English teachers look down on Chinese people just like that. |
Is this an obama care ad. People should die at 75 and are stupid at 60. Fact is, a healthy body can keep going. You are limiting the ability of humans.
You are young, I take it, but you say Chinese students have better written English. Have you actually read a paragraph? They need teachers and older teachers are wiser than you. You put down older teachers for no reason, you claim brain degradation then use your mom as evidence. Where were your teachers.
I am 30 by the way. By no means old. I must have came from a different place than you though. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| jm21 wrote: |
That is somewhat shocking, particularly in China where the students written English is so much stroger than their oral English.
Even my mom, who is a retired teacher, had her doubts about those teaching beyond 60 or so. The brain starts to go. Simple as that.
My school had a guy in his 70's who couldn't even get to the classroom and wasn't teaching the students squat. Just waiting to die in China.
The typical Chinese worker is not a professor. The typical Chinese worker works 9-12 hours per day, 6 days a week, and has no paid vacation except for the national holidays when it is difficult to travel. I find it ridiculous that someone has lived in China and thinks that the typical worker is a Chinese professor. By the way, a lot of old English teachers look down on Chinese people just like that. |
Is this an obama care ad. People should die at 75 and are stupid at 60. Fact is, a healthy body can keep going. You are limiting the ability of humans.
You are young, I take it, but you say Chinese students have better written English. Have you actually read a paragraph? They need teachers and older teachers are wiser than you. You put down older teachers for no reason, you claim brain degradation then use your mom as evidence. Where were your teachers.
I am 30 by the way. By no means old. I must have came from a different place than you though. |
My grandpa, he's 95
And he keeps on dancin'
He's still alive
My grandma, she's 92
She loves to dance
And sing some, too
I don't know
But I've been told
If you keep on dancing
You'll never grow old
Come on darling
Put a pretty dress on
We're gonna go out tonight
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
All night long
[Steve Miller Band) |
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Nano
Joined: 10 Jun 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Qinhuangdao, China
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Initially I was planning to go to Korea to teach but last minute decided that China may be a better option. Judging by the VERY overwhelming majority, I guess I made the right decision between the two. As a first time teacher, I am grateful that I work at supposedly the best high school in my city, get a good salary and the locals are nice. Sure they stare like crazy but I haven't heard any horror stories like what I hear from ESL teachers in Korea regarding public displays of racism, xenophobia, etc. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| jm21 wrote: |
That is somewhat shocking, particularly in China where the students written English is so much stroger than their oral English.
Even my mom, who is a retired teacher, had her doubts about those teaching beyond 60 or so. The brain starts to go. Simple as that.
My school had a guy in his 70's who couldn't even get to the classroom and wasn't teaching the students squat. Just waiting to die in China.
The typical Chinese worker is not a professor. The typical Chinese worker works 9-12 hours per day, 6 days a week, and has no paid vacation except for the national holidays when it is difficult to travel. I find it ridiculous that someone has lived in China and thinks that the typical worker is a Chinese professor. By the way, a lot of old English teachers look down on Chinese people just like that. |
Is this an obama care ad. People should die at 75 and are stupid at 60. Fact is, a healthy body can keep going. You are limiting the ability of humans.
You are young, I take it, but you say Chinese students have better written English. Have you actually read a paragraph? They need teachers and older teachers are wiser than you. You put down older teachers for no reason, you claim brain degradation then use your mom as evidence. Where were your teachers.
I am 30 by the way. By no means old. I must have came from a different place than you though. |
My students' comprehension of written English is light years ahead of their oral English capabilities. If I see some students struggling to understand what I'm saying the first thing I do is type what I'm trying to say on the computer/projector. Usually works. I'm sure you understand that a person's reading ability is typically much stronger than their writing ability. I would think someone teaching here and learning Chinese would be especially aware of how much easier it is to read than write.
I was actually very pleasantly aurprised at my students' essay exam answers. Homework answers were usually bad because most students don't give a crap about it.
Moreover, as a teacher you should know how important it is to hit different areas of memory and reinforce their learning with repitition. So both oral and written instruction is typically more effective than just one or the other.
You can do much of this with a chalk board or a dry erase board too. You will just be doing it at 10 wpm instead of 80, you will waste class time on things that could have been prepared before class, and you will have more difficulty using images （third type of memory).
This becomes especially important when you teach a more complicated subject outside of oral English. I didn't have a computer my first two weeks in my PR class and it was hell. Every time I wrote something on the chalkboard I thought of how much time I was wasting and how much less information the students were getting. Made me sick. Damn cheapskate school.
To have a computer available and not use it is really pretty bad. They can be amazing tools for education.
Read my posts.
Perhaps I am more vehement about the age issue because I have had so many family members die in their 40's 50's and 60's. I've got a 67yo uncle who thinks he will live forever when every male family member of his died before 63 and it drives me nuts. He should be retired and enjoying his golden years but he borrowed too much money in his later years. I also had so many clients in their 50's who could no longer work and were completely screwed since they didn't save enough. Thought they would be working until 65 at least. Everyone should be ready to retire at 55 if necessary, just in case, and have some money for a final hoorah if they find themselves terminally ill.
No amount of diet and exercise will stop you from getting cancer. No serum of eternal life exists. You are going to die someday. Get used to it. It's not that bad.
I never said everyone over 60 was brain dead. I said the brain starts to go. My mom is in her early 60's and she's honest enough to admit she has trouble learning new things and remembering things. This is just science. Short term memory is the first thing to go. There's nothing bad about it. It's natural. She had a great working life and she was happy to pass the baton to young fresh teachers.
If you are over 60, surprise, you are much more likely to die. How many of those who are 75 are cancer survivors? They would be dead without modern medicine. Your school does not want to deal with a foreigner who is much more likely to have serious health problems. You can't do a good job while undergoing chemo. I've seen what it does to people too many times to be so foolish as to think a person can teach well while undergoing that.
I never said all old teachers were all bad. I said they tended to think they were much better than they actually were. I also said they were outdated, slow, and lacked public speakimg skills. That is true for every old teacher I have met so far. Sure, there will be some old teachers who are better than young teachers, it's just a lot less common than they think.
Also, with the nature of tefl, it is not uncommon for a 30yo and a 60yo to have the same amount of actual teaching experience.
ANd it's not just China. Schools in America are desperate to get the older teachers out and fresh young teachers in. My mom was able to retire several years early because they were basically bribing the older teachers to get out. A lot of that is salary but some old teachers can be pretty bad. Especially if they lost their interest in teaching and are just hanging on because they can't afford to retire.
By the way, I am older than you. So listen to your elder and plan on retiring at 55. If you can still work that's great...you will have a better retirement. If something bad happens you will be incredibly thankful you saved. |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
You are young, I take it, but you say Chinese students have better written English. Have you actually read a paragraph? They need teachers and older teachers are wiser than you. You put down older teachers for no reason, you claim brain degradation then use your mom as evidence. Where were your teachers.
I am 30 by the way. By no means old. I must have came from a different place than you though. |
| jm21 wrote: |
By the way, I am older than you. So listen to your elder and plan on retiring at 55. If you can still work that's great...you will have a better retirement. If something bad happens you will be incredibly thankful you saved. |
I am wisdomer than you |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| water rat wrote: |
My grandpa, he's 95
And he keeps on dancin'
He's still alive
My grandma, she's 92
She loves to dance
And sing some, too
I don't know
But I've been told
If you keep on dancing
You'll never grow old
Come on darling
Put a pretty dress on
We're gonna go out tonight
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
All night long
[Steve Miller Band) |
Awesome reply!
Perhaps we may draw the conclusion that if you are older, K land is not an option. But you can keep dancing!
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johnson007
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Can a mod put a sock in the mouth of jm21's age trolling? I thought this thread was about stating a preference for either China or Korea? Jeez, apparently jm21's highly intelligent state of brilliant youth genius is synonymous with being unable to read, focus, and stay on point. Way to derail and emotionally streak in public jm21! Get back to us when your frontal lobe is a bit more developed and you have greater control over your emotions and narcissistic belief that your experiences, family history, and personal opinions matter more to others than they actually do. Absolutism is a sign of a weak intellect. There are exceptions to every rule. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| johnson007 wrote: |
| Can a mod put a sock in the mouth of jm21's age trolling? I thought this thread was about stating a preference for either China or Korea? Jeez, apparently jm21's highly intelligent state of brilliant youth genius is synonymous with being unable to read, focus, and stay on point. Way to derail and emotionally streak in public jm21! Get back to us when your frontal lobe is a bit more developed and you have greater control over your emotions and narcissistic belief that your experiences, family history, and personal opinions matter more to others than they actually do. Absolutism is a sign of a weak intellect. There are exceptions to every rule. |
As you're new, perhaps you do not realize you can report a post by clicking on the little red exclamation mark in the top right corner of each post. I appreciate your concern. (The Original Poster) |
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