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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Ditto Rtm's comments. A TEFL qualification that entailed supervised, observed, and assessed teaching practice with a classroom of real students greatly appeals to employers because it confirms you've been properly trained to teach ESOL. Obviously, online TEFL courses lack this component, which is why they're not favored by many overseas employers.
Moreover, in addition to this crucial assessed practicum, employers worldwide readily accept qualifications like CELTA, SIT, and Trinity CertTESOL because these courses are standardized---they're the same content and delivery regardless of where they're taken. They also have established, reputable roots: CELTA is offered through Cambridge English Assessment (a non-profit organization affiliated with Cambridge University); SIT TESOL by the School for International Training Graduate Institute in the US; and Trinity CertTESOL as a qualification through Trinity College London. That said, some generic TEFL course providers fashion their face-to-face training courses based on those standards, which is why you'll sometimes see job ads stating, "CELTA or equivalent TEFL cert" indicated. |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Ditto Rtm's comments. A TEFL qualification that entailed supervised, observed, and assessed teaching practice with a classroom of real students greatly appeals to employers because it confirms you've been properly trained to teach ESOL. Obviously, online TEFL courses lack this component, which is why they're not favored by many overseas employers.
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I totally understand that, but I think that the standard is a bit short-sighted for those with actual Education degrees. See my previous comment above about content areas. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| So, here's how I see it in an example: I have a BA in Education, with the subject area of Music. I have taken all of the core curriculum classes within the Dept. of Education from my alma mater. If I wanted to suddenly teach science or another subject matter within the US, I would simply need to take those science education classes and not have to RE-TAKE the core education classes. I would also need to take the test for science teacher certification. This is how I see it with ESL. ESL is just the content. I have already taken the core Education classes (including practicum in-class teaching), plus have a Master's within the Dept of Education and feel that I am just lacking this specific content area in my education. If I was a school employer in the US and saw that a previous music teacher with a great teaching record is now applying for a science teacher position and has taken the required science courses, I would assume that they CAN actually TEACH science and would probably be quite good at it based on their previous teaching record along with the recent content area of Science Education under their belt. I understand it's the "rules" for some countries for ESL, but....it's a little silly to me and seems a little ESL elitist to me. |
However, be aware teaching English as a second/foreign language means teaching language skills and not content such as English/language arts, science, math, social studies, etc. TESOL entails intercultural communication, linguistics, language acquisition theories, and learner-centered teaching approaches and strategies. You might take a look at the CELTA's course content: www.cambridgeenglish.org/images/21816-celta-syllbus.pdf to get an idea of what English language teaching involves as well as the type of skills and knowledge the better employers expect teachers to possess. |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| rtm wrote: |
| zugora wrote: |
2 reasons:
1) Previous non-ESL teaching experience doesn't mean you will be a good ESL teacher
2) Potential employers on the other side of the world don't have evidence that you effectively delivered content and engaged and motivated students. A standardized TEFL certificate program that includes in-person, observed, evaluated teaching will at least be something that the employer is familiar with (since it's standardized all over the world). That is, many employers would rather take someone whose training and performance is known and they can verify (even if it is just a 30-day certificate) than someone with unverifiable experience of unknown quality. |
Regarding #1: So, here's how I see it in an example: I have a BA in Education, with the subject area of Music. I have taken all of the core curriculum classes within the Dept. of Education from my alma mater. If I wanted to suddenly teach science or another subject matter within the US, I would simply need to take those science education classes and not have to RE-TAKE the core education classes. I would also need to take the test for science teacher certification. This is how I see it with ESL. ESL is just the content. I have already taken the core Education classes (including practicum in-class teaching), plus have a Master's within the Dept of Education and feel that I am just lacking this specific content area in my education. If I was a school employer in the US and saw that a previous music teacher with a great teaching record is now applying for a science teacher position and has taken the required science courses, I would assume that they CAN actually TEACH science and would probably be quite good at it based on their previous teaching record along with the recent content area of Science Education under their belt. I understand it's the "rules" for some countries for ESL, but....it's a little silly to me and seems a little ESL elitist to me.
Regarding #2: Yes, I can totally see that. But gosh, I really hope my letters of recommendation for previously teaching ESL might help, my previous experience as a public school teacher along with the online ESL classes that I plan to take will help - I don't have the luxury of attending in-person classes at this point. (Btw, most schools in the US do recognize additional online science education content programs, for instance,- because they know you already have your degree in education). But yes...i understand there is a language barrier and they get 100s of applications, so they are scanning for this item only for standardization purposes. However, I really think they should make exceptions for those who already do have degrees in Education but have content area courses (online or not) in ESL. I actually think it's short-sighted to assume that those with Education degrees are not qualified to teach ESL because they have not taken *in-person* ESL certification programs, only on-line ESL content programs. |
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Let's put this in context then:
I have an MATESOL and an M.Ed.
I am qualified, certified and experienced as a teacher.
I have a great liking for music; I listen to it every day on the way to work.
Sometimes I sing at the local karaoke bar and people have said I am pretty good.
Would I be a good candidate as a music teacher?
Would you hire me to be a music teacher at your school?
Would you pay be top dollar to be the music teacher at your school or perhaps just give me an entry level job and allow me to prove my ability?
hmmmmm
The world outside the US is not like it is IN the US.
Do NOT be so ethnocentric in your thinking that just because you are a teacher at home that most employers will jump at you and offer you a premium post because of your blue passport or that YOUR standards are any higher than theirs.
If you want an entry level job (like most TEFL teachers with stars in their eyes, pictures of beaches and palm trees, and images of travel to exotic places) then you are good to go.
Apply now and you will be on a plane in 90 days. The school year in most of East Asia begins in the spring (March to June).
If you are hoping (with the qualifications that you currently have) to land a job (in EFL) paying more than $2000/month and living the dreams presented by TEFL course seller websites then your dreams will be dashed and you will be returning home sooner than later with a very bad taste in your mouth.
IF you are serious about working abroad as a teacher then go with what you have. Look at international school positions IN YOUR FIELD. The difference is huge ($1000/month in SE Asia for a TEFL teacher and $4000 + benefits for a licensed teacher in a properly accredited international school).
You can argue here about the quality and relevance of your qualifications and experience until you are blue in the face but I will express to you, as one who does hire teaching and academic staff (I am currently responsible for 7 schools and about 10,000 students), I wouldn't hire you as anything other than an entry level EFL teacher.
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Last edited by suphanburi on Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
However, be aware teaching English as a second/foreign language means teaching language skills and not content such as English/language arts, science, math, social studies, etc. TESOL entails intercultural communication, linguistics, language acquisition theories, and learner-centered teaching approaches and strategies. You might take a look at the CELTA's course content: www.cambridgeenglish.org/images/21816-celta-syllbus.pdf to get an idea of what English language teaching involves as well as the type of skills and knowledge the better employers expect teachers to possess. |
Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the content as I have researched it. There you go again with your assumptions. Btw, teaching language skills IS a content area, btw, much like teaching musical skills. Music instrument reading and playing is also a type of language and also involves many types of learners, communication levels, acquisition theories, etc, etc.
Last edited by Monchi on Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| suphanburi wrote: |
Let's put this in context then:
I have an MATESOL and an M.Ed.
I am qualified, certified and experienced as a teacher.
I have a great liking for music; I listen to it every day on the way to work.
Sometimes I sing at the local karaoke bar and people have said I am pretty good.
Would I be a good candidate as a music teacher?
Would you hire me to be a music teacher at your school?
Would you pay be top dollar to be the music teacher at your school or perhaps just give me an entry level job and allow me to prove my ability?
hmmmmm
The world outside the US is not like it is IN the US.
Do NOT be so ethnocentric in your thinking that just because you are a teacher at home that most employers will jump at you and offer you a premium post because of your blue passport or that YOUR standards are any higher than theirs.
You can argue about the quality of your qualifications an experience until you are blue in the face but as one who does hire (I am currently responsible for 7 schools and about 10,000 students), I wouldn't hire you as an EFL teacher.
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Hahaha. You are quite a jokester to believe that listening to music and singing karaoke is the same as teaching ESL with an online certificate and and with a B.A. and M.A in Education. Not exactly apples to apples, but I understand your overly-stretched point.
I do feel it's unfair to "name-call" and flat-out call me enthnocentric without even knowing me. I was simply giving an example regarding content area. I'm quite aware that things to do not or SHOULD not always operate as they do here in US public schools and I do understand standardization.
I'm leaving this particular forum...there is clearly bias, elitist view-points, and negativity here. I appreciate your info. However, I know of others with teaching abroad experience whom I can glean info from in a positive environment.
Last edited by Monchi on Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| suphanburi wrote: |
You can argue here about the quality and relevance of your qualifications and experience until you are blue in the face but I will express to you, as one who does hire teaching and academic staff (I am currently responsible for 7 schools and about 10,000 students), I wouldn't hire you as anything other than an entry level EFL teacher.
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Suphanburi- With that kind of name-calling and negativity in your previous post, I wouldn't work for you in a million years. I hope you don't treat your candidates or employees like this if they were simply trying to understand the system and offer another viewpoint. Very sad. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
Regarding #1: So, here's how I see it in an example: I have a BA in Education, with the subject area of Music. I have taken all of the core curriculum classes within the Dept. of Education from my alma mater. If I wanted to suddenly teach science or another subject matter within the US, I would simply need to take those science education classes and not have to RE-TAKE the core education classes. I would also need to take the test for science teacher certification. This is how I see it with ESL. ESL is just the content. |
See, that's where you lose me. ESL teaching isn't just the content. Language teaching has its own very specific teaching methodologies (e.g., communicative language teaching, audiolingual method, total physical response, task-based language teaching, content-based instruction / content and language-integrated learning, Focus on Form, grammar-translation method, and many, many, many more). I'm not saying that other disciplines don't have a number of methodologies, as I'm sure they do (though I have no experience in any disciplines other than language education), but I am saying that a skilled, trained ESL teacher needs to be aware of a number of methodologies, and have practice implementing them, preferably under the guidance, supervision, and evaluation of a skilled, knowledgeable teacher.
As an experienced ESL teacher, I personally would not think that I could effectively be a science teacher just by learning some science and using that within my ESL teaching framework. Yes, I would feel confident that I could teach students the language of science, but not the subject matter.
| Quote: |
| Regarding #2: Yes, I can totally see that. But gosh, I really hope my letters of recommendation for previously teaching ESL might help, my previous experience as a public school teacher along with the online ESL classes that I plan to take will help - I don't have the luxury of attending in-person classes at this point. |
Your letters of recommendation might not mean much to an employer overseas. For one, letters of recommendation (in the form they are written and used in the US) don't exist in many countries. For example, when I was leaving Japan to move back to the US, and asked my employer for a letter of recommendation, they had no idea what to write, and gave me a letter of about 3 sentences, stating the dates of my employment and my position title. I had to explain to them that I needed a personal, but objective letter gushing about how great, reliable, accomplished, and skilled teacher I am, which was just baffling to them. If they were to receive such a letter from a candidate, they would be as equally confused.
Beyond that, the people who do the hiring (often times an HR department and management, not fellow English teachers themselves) won't be able to understand letters of recommendation written in a language they don't speak, unless you are thinking of being conscientious enough to get letters of recommendation in the local language of every place you apply. Likewise, if someone applying for a position at my employer in the US to teach, say, Chinese, and showed up with letters of recommendation written in Chinese, my department chair would just laugh and go on to the next application.
| Quote: |
| (Btw, most schools in the US do recognize additional online science education content programs, for instance,- because they know you already have your degree in education). |
Two things:
1) You need to stop basing your expectations of what happens in other countries on what happens in the US.
2) I don't think schools or departments of education in the US would give you ESL endorsement for taking the TEFL course you are planning to take, so that's really not a good comparison. If you were to get ESL endorsement for public school teaching in the US, that would likely be more valuable abroad than the course you are planning on taking. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the content as I have researched it. There you go again with your assumptions. Btw, teaching language skills IS a content area, btw, much like teaching musical skills. Music instrument reading and playing is also a type of language. |
Seriously, I'm not making assumptions about you; it's just a general response based on your posting, and in no way, some personal insult against you. Besides, others new to TEFL can certainly benefit from this discussion topic as well.
The point that others and I have been trying to make is that foreign employers will see your qualifications differently from how you perceive them; no one is insulting your academic achievements.
That said, employers overseas have their own ideas of what they require in terms of academic credentials and experience. For instance, where some will accept volunteer ESL teaching and tutoring, others will not. Mid East employers also reject online teaching experience because it's not formally assessed, doesn't reflect a classroom environment, nor is it verifiable. That's just the way things are---the reality of TEFL. It's pretty much a matter of applying to see how employers evaluate your academic qualifications and experience. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| Hahaha. You are quite a jokester to believe that listening to music and singing karaoke [and a M.Ed. and MA in TESOL] is the same as teaching ESL with an online certificate and and with a B.A. and M.A in Education. |
Actually, if you saw the content of a lot of online TEFL certificate courses, you might agree that this is a pretty fair comparison. |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| suphanburi wrote: |
Let's put this in context then:
I have an MATESOL and an M.Ed.
I am qualified, certified and experienced as a teacher.
I have a great liking for music; I listen to it every day on the way to work.
Sometimes I sing at the local karaoke bar and people have said I am pretty good.
Would I be a good candidate as a music teacher?
Would you hire me to be a music teacher at your school?
Would you pay be top dollar to be the music teacher at your school or perhaps just give me an entry level job and allow me to prove my ability?
hmmmmm
The world outside the US is not like it is IN the US.
Do NOT be so ethnocentric in your thinking that just because you are a teacher at home that most employers will jump at you and offer you a premium post because of your blue passport or that YOUR standards are any higher than theirs.
You can argue about the quality of your qualifications an experience until you are blue in the face but as one who does hire (I am currently responsible for 7 schools and about 10,000 students), I wouldn't hire you as an EFL teacher.
. |
Hahaha. You are quite a jokester to believe that listening to music and singing karaoke is the same as teaching ESL with an online certificate and and with a B.A. and M.A in Education. Not exactly apples to apples, but I understand your overly-stretched point.
I do feel it's unfair to "name-call" and flat-out call me enthnocentric without even knowing me. I was simply giving an example regarding content area. I'm quite aware that things to do not or SHOULD not always operate as they do here in US public schools and I do understand standardization.
I'm leaving this particular forum...there is clearly bias, elitist view-points, and negativity here. I appreciate your info. However, I know of others with teaching abroad whom I can glean info from in a positive environment. |
I have a Master of Arts in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages, a Master of Education and 16 years in the classroom.....
You have a BA and MA in education with a focus in music.
You think I should not be a music teacher. I suppose that would be because listening to music and singing at the local karaoke don't adequately prepare me to actually TEACH music.
Why should I think you can teach EFL? Simply because you speak English and can understand what you hear (I sing and listen to music)?
Are you experienced as a content teacher = yes, I believe so.
Are you experienced and qualified to teach the subjects you profess - I believe so.
Are you ready to take on more than an entry level job teaching EFL abroad = Probably no more than I am qualified to teach music.
Do you have a broad base of knowledge in TEFL?
You have a firm grasp of Phonetics and Phonology, and their application in an EFL context? Do you know the difference (theoretical and practical applications thereof ) between phonetics and phonics?
You somehow have the innate ability (without the pedagogical background) to convey an understanding of pragmatics and speech acts to your students?
You understand the differences between language acquisition and language learning?
You are comfortable with CALL and TELL?
CBT/CBL and CLIL are second nature to you?
The concept of multiple Englishes works for you?
How are you with providing grammar instruction for academic writing.
Entry level EFL teacher positions and you are good to go.
Music teacher and you are good to go.
Higher level EFL - I wouldn't be so sure.
Often times it behooves us to admit that perhaps it is not just a case of what we don't know but more often a case of not even knowing that we don't know what we don't know.
BUT - don't take my word for it....
If you want a rose colored answer... try Teach 'N Travel, or perhaps http://www.americantesolinstitute.com/english-jobs-abroad.php (they will be very happy to send you to the sharks).
If you want some facts... look at the horror stories on the various forums and Facebook groups by teachers in just about every country on the planet.
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
Actually, if you saw the content of a lot of online TEFL certificate courses, you might agree that this is a pretty fair comparison. |
Doubt it. I understand the MATESOLs out there are very sensitive about the topic and find online courses insulting, but karaoke singing or listening to music for leisure has absolutely nothing to do with music theory and music education.
Last edited by Monchi on Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| suphanburi wrote: |
I have a Master of Arts in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages, a Master of Education and 16 years in the classroom.....
You have a BA and MA in education with a focus in music.
You think I should not be a music teacher. I suppose that would be because listening to music and singing at the local karaoke don't adequately prepare me to actually TEACH music.
Why should I think you can teach EFL? Simply because you speak English and can understand what you hear (I sing and listen to music)?
Are you experienced as a content teacher = yes, I believe so.
Are you experienced and qualified to teach the subjects you profess - I believe so.
Are you ready to take on more than an entry level job teaching EFL abroad = Probably no more than I am qualified to teach music.
Do you have a broad base of knowledge in TEFL?
You have a firm grasp of Phonetics and Phonology, and their application in an EFL context? Do you know the difference (theoretical and practical applications thereof ) between phonetics and phonics?
You somehow have the innate ability (without the pedagogical background) to convey an understanding of pragmatics and speech acts to your students?
You understand the differences between language acquisition and language learning?
You are comfortable with CALL and TELL?
CBT/CBL and CLIL are second nature to you?
The concept of multiple Englishes works for you?
How are you with providing grammar instruction for academic writing.
Entry level EFL teacher positions and you are good to go.
Music teacher and you are good to go.
Higher level EFL - I wouldn't be so sure.
Often times it behooves us to admit that perhaps it is not just a case of what we don't know but more often a case of not even knowing that we don't know what we don't know.
BUT - don't take my word for it....
If you want a rose colored answer... try Teach 'N Travel, or perhaps http://www.americantesolinstitute.com/english-jobs-abroad.php (they will be very happy to send you to the sharks).
If you want some facts... look at the horror stories on the various forums and Facebook groups by teachers in just about every country on the planet.
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I am not engaging anymore. You are clearly interested in bullying on this forum and I refuse to engage in this "comparison" topic. Very upsetting that this is coming from an administrator. Good luck with your hiring process.
Last edited by Monchi on Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:11 am; edited 2 times in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| rtm wrote: |
| Actually, if you saw the content of a lot of online TEFL certificate courses, you might agree that this is a pretty fair comparison. |
Doubt it. I understand the MATESOLs out there are very sensitive about the topic and find online courses insulting... |
Not so. It's just that many MA TESOL holders realize the better employers find online courses lacking. So they either get a CELTA or equivalent TEFL cert, or choose an MA degree program that included an ESOL practicum, which is what I did. It's a matter of meeting the employers' requirements and not the other way around. |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| rtm wrote: |
Actually, if you saw the content of a lot of online TEFL certificate courses, you might agree that this is a pretty fair comparison. |
Doubt it. I understand the MATESOLs out there are very sensitive about the topic and find online courses insulting, but karaoke singing or listening to music for leisure absolutely nothing to do with music theory and music education. |
And speaking English in an English speaking country has nothing to do with the theory of teaching/learning of English as a Foreign Language in a non-English environment with little or no outside support.
| zugora wrote: |
| I am not engaging anymore. You are clearly interested in bullying on this forum and I refuse to engage in this "comparison" topic. Very upsetting that this is coming from an administrator. Good luck with your hiring process. |
Engage or not... it won't change the material facts....
You have what you have.
Your experience is what it is.
You don't have what you don't have.
The rest of the planet is NOT like the US.
Roll with it or stay home. Those are your options.
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