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Daniel A
Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jim. Does anyone know about remote teaching?
All options are being considered!
Also, as an aside, I have noticed some contracts are more "forward" and punitive in regard to disciplinary actions against teacher tardiness, absences, etc? I am guessing that it is a lack of vocabulary on behalf of the individual translating the document or the school has had problem teachers (or the school has been bad itself which resulted in the teacher running off). |
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justcolleen
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Egypt, baby!
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel A wrote: |
| Also, as an aside, I have noticed some contracts are more "forward" and punitive in regard to disciplinary actions against teacher tardiness, absences, etc? I am guessing that it is a lack of vocabulary on behalf of the individual translating the document or the school has had problem teachers (or the school has been bad itself which resulted in the teacher running off). |
It's all in how you negotiate. Absences happen and shouldn't be under a scorched earth policy. So, tell them you want to change that. Tardiness? They don't seem to be providing transportation, so I'm not sure what to tell you. While you're negotiating, you should know how you feel about substituting and break duties and have whatever you agree to written into the contract. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I actually have not lived in China for four years now OP. After a brief stint teaching in Saudi, have done online teaching when I lived in the Philippines, Mexico and now here in Colombia. As you can see it has flexibility and is a quickly growing field. I expect that the majority of ESL instruction will be online within 5-10 years.
Best to just start googling on the industry and then start pinpointing areas that would suit you or your wife best in terms of income and satisfaction. You may also very well find opportunities for corporate training and for special needs.
Per the contract question, I would personally think it mostly has to do with the employer having all the perceived power in China, and hence, it is just natural for them to play that card whenever they perceive they can. Since the 2014 visa changes, there are probably a fair amount of clauses in such contracts which are illegal, but another discussion.
Bad translation and trying to shield the school from the the deleterious effects of a certain percentage of ESL teachers in China I am sure also come into play. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
| As you can see it has flexibility and is a quickly growing field. I expect that the majority of ESL instruction will be online within 5-10 years. |
Have a source for what it is today? 'Cuz that's a bold prediction.
As far as the United States, a quick search turned up Changing Course:Ten Years of Tracking Online Education in the US. (.pdf)
And these fast facts from the National Center for Ed Statistics
There's much in the way of the promotion of it, but facts are more challenging. The slick .pdf I've linked above is partially sponsored by Pearson. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| jimpellow wrote: |
| As you can see it has flexibility and is a quickly growing field. I expect that the majority of ESL instruction will be online within 5-10 years. |
Have a source for what it is today? 'Cuz that's a bold prediction.
As far as the United States, a quick search turned up Changing Course:Ten Years of Tracking Online Education in the US. (.pdf)
And these fast facts from the National Center for Ed Statistics
There's much in the way of the promotion of it, but facts are more challenging. The slick .pdf I've linked above is partially sponsored by Pearson. |
I'm not looking up sources for you. I will opine from my belief that industries transform in record time now, and usually in a way that is not beneficial to the worker. I foresee remote learning where one qualified teacher instructs many groups of students over the Net, with their introductory instruction and follow up lessons standardized over the Net too. I foresee massive sweatshops of ESL teachers working for sh*t either in house or remotely for large multinationals which dominate the market. Quality be damned as has happened in other fields which have been commoditized in the name of globalization. Few students will be able to perceive or do much about it as someone above them in the educational hierarchy will be making/saving a buck at their expense. |
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Stonefield
Joined: 03 Oct 2015
Posts: 7
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
It is certainly true that salaries can be all over the board. No fast rule for the lowest paying offers, but often it is due to a recruiter being involved who intends to pocket a substantial part of your salary.
Couples are attractive to schools as they can kill two birds with one stone so to say. Usually they can save on the cost of an apartment too, but with you bringing kids they will need to provide a larger one. If the apartment will be coming out of your salary, you will be paying a lot up front for it, and paying a fair amount for something acceptable for your family in terms of quality and size.
Bringing the kids along is a real rarity, especially for standard ESL teachers. If you think it will be a fun process to receive your visas, wait until the process for them per the 2014 visa changes unless these have been revised.
I think you would need to talk about your background and what and where you intend to teach to give you an accurate salary range (public or private, children or adults, specialized subjects such as Business English, subjects, IELTS prep etc.
The paid tuition sounds odd to me for a first time general ESL teacher? I could see free tuition if you were to work in a true international school, but your qualifications don't sound adequate for such.
PS The Ningbo offer sounds like a joke. You may also want to research the pollution issue for where you may go if you intend to bring the kids. A good number of expats with families in China have left specifically due to the pollution issue. The school will rarely tell you the truth (get used to this). Best to ask questions on boards and research.
PSS You also mention limited classroom experience. To obtain a z-visa in many jurisdictions two years of relevant experience is increasingly a more common requirement. If either of you do not have this, the ability to obtain visas successfully becomes vague, or at least so in the sense beyond the scope of the thread. |
... Very helpful info. the pollution issues caught my attention that was a big issue for me 15 yrs ago during my first tour of s korea. then I guess my lungs just got used the massive amounts of carbon by products & carcinogens in the air. what cities have a reputation for best / worst air quality.?? also Ive seen alot of contract offers that dont include housing as part of the package. what is your advice and experience regarding housing and the best way to address that?? thanks- |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
| I'm not looking up sources for you. |
You seem to be well educated on stuff you made up.
It's not for my benefit you substantiate a claim. But providing a basis for a number pulled out of a hat is the next best thing! So...this querent asks: What futures lie for diviners, sages, and bullshit artists?  |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Funny, I think it is so obvious that the field is going in that direction, but I come from a business-economics background. I do side work for a dude setting up a remote school for the PRC market and I know he is not the only one. I used to work for an online Chinese school where the students were charged for American teachers, but 98% of the teachers unbeknownst to the students were from the Philippines.
Point is if there is profit margin and demand businesses will move into the market to leverage the benefits of current technologies and economies of scale. It has happened in fields like IT, architecture and accounting, and there is no reason to think it will not happen in ESL and other areas of instruction.
Obviously there will still be demand for ESL teachers at local levels, much as there is still a need for local IT people. But as you run across displaced and discouraged professionals from these fields now in the ESL field, I think one can see that the effect will be similar in time with ESL. Why are labor participation rates in Western countries at such abysmal levels? |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
| Why are labor participation rates in Western countries at such abysmal levels? |
A 3 and a third % decrease in the US over a decade is abysmal? Pretty bearish. But you said Europe, right? Cross referencing "abysmal" with labor participation sources does return a YouTube video. It's so revealing! He'll be watching Greece!
Citing an anecdote about malfeasance in the Philipines is a poor basis to conclude all others will, and reciting Business 101 about margins and their leverage and the multiplier of scale is, as well, a poor basis to conjecture brick and mortar classrooms wil be a minority in 5 to 10 years.
But opine away. It's worked for O'Reilly. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Anyways, you remind of the programmers I worked with back in the late 90s, when I did business intranet systems, who felt that the influx of guest workers and the offshoring of projects would have no effect on their job security. Few survived and had nothing else to fall back on when their short sightedness caught up with them.
You can google on elearning industry growth and online language teaching growth as starting points to where the field is going and at what speed.
As for China, it is a rapidly growing market, but does have issues for delivering remote learning mostly relating to the firewall and the location of servers as well as the servicing and security of on-site equipment. But the need as well as real and perceived benefits are there.
Sorry if you can't get it. |
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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
The problem I can see with most jobs advertised in BJ, SZ, SH etc. is that most no longer include housing.
12000 in Shanghai without a house ends up [with travel costs, rent in a cheap place, electricity, gas, internet] leaving you with 6000 RMB for a month.
Hardly saving anything.
Seems the better job offers are either full time that require alot of effort [i.e. 40 hours in the school], but offer 20000 with housing say, OR are housing + say 10,000 with only 16-20 hours a week, allowing you to burn another 15000 in pt work |
I rent in Shanghai (tho not downtown) 100 SQ M = 3600. Two younger colleagues share accom, downtown, 3,000 each. I have no travel costs. Their travel costs are 60 RMB a week. The employer gives us 1200 a semester towards the commute, which means I profit on the travel expenses!. Your statement of is thus misleading to say the least. My boss and her hubby pay 8000, therefor 4000 each, sitting on top of a metro station in a great area, but on a combined 600,000 RMB income, they are not bothered. Moral of the story? 20K - 3 to 4 K is still better than 5 or 6 with free accom. We all work 3 day weeks with the exception of the boss lady who does 4. it is not a necessity to work crapola hours to earn decent money.
I don't know any of the 40 hour gigs (IE English first and the ilk) which offer housing. In the university where the partner I work for resides, the standard English teachers are provided on contract by EF. 40 hour weeks @ 14,500. Another acquaintance is at web 16,000 for 5 X 1pm to 9 pm shifts - working every Sat and Sun (horrendous!!!)
There are 6000 jobs out there with great swathes of free time.
There are high pay jobs with no free time.
The message I try to deliver is, if you look and are lucky, you can find the best of both worlds. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: |
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'look and ARE LUCKY'
I think you just described a pretty unique case. Good on you for getting it but it is hardly the general situation. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
You can google on elearning industry growth and online language teaching growth as starting points to where the field is going and at what speed.
Sorry if you can't get it. |
I don't care if you're sorry.
Your claims have been challenged and shown to have little basis.
Nothing in this thread demonstrates your ability to source, cite, argue, or apply what people find with "a google". You're about the business of enterprise you promote. Nothing innately wrong with that, but opining about the future after baldly claiming this or that as fact-- to a forum of teachers--should get you called out. I haven't stated my belief is my industry is immune to progress. Guess who's asserting that? I've simply challenged specious conclusions framed as reality or plain to anyone with "knowledge".
When one can't argue about what they've claimed without framing a reply by what another has not, it's indicative of poorly organized and constructed conclusions and claims.
Let me back up a little...you stated an expectation, not a fact, and I've contended you've offered little substantiation for it. I like many of your posts, or I wouldn't challenge what I can demonstrate is less concrete. Tech's boom and bust cycles are devastating. It took a loooong time for Doug Englebert's "Mother of All Demos" to be exercised at Xerox' PARC and stock dealed into the Mac. 1/2 in 5 years! Doubling the expectation is merely hedging a weak forecast. |
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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
'look and ARE LUCKY'
I think you just described a pretty unique case. Good on you for getting it but it is hardly the general situation. |
I never said it was general, because it certainly is not, but it is my no means unique. There are many many programs similar to the one I work on throughout China, some certainly better I imagine. Mate of mine was just offered $70 K by an American university in Shanghai. He has been in China for barely 3 months. That comes to 35K RMB a month.
More foreign uni's are opening campuses here - more still have the partnership thing going on. Its not unique, not just a few. Maybe several hundred such schemes exist |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| You said your two colleagues share a house, i.e. 6000 total, so I am right. That apartment is costing 6000....so plus the usual things of electricity, internet, gas, at maybe 600-700[plus fees for accom, and heating in winter if applicable] and 7000 has gone that means on a 14000 salary 7000 is left... |
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