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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps we don't have a lot of post-CELTA experience, but a CELTA is very different from a run-of-the-mill TEFL. Anyone who really knows the industry knows this, especially competant school directors. Go find a respectable school in an English speaking country who will even look at a CV without a CELTA. This is the fundamental difference between good schools and bad ones (along with many other differentiating factors). |
Actually, there are some of us (competent directors) who also accept SIT TESOL and Trinity qualifications as top-of-the-line certs. Further, there are some generic certs that tick the important boxes. I myself happen to have a generic cert (from almost 20 years ago), but which was month-long, on-site, including the supervised teaching practice with real students. I've got more advanced quals now, but even Canada recognizes my basic cert as equivalent to a CELTA. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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"Go find a respectable school in an English speaking country who will even look at a CV without a CELTA."
I believe that, according to some, anyway, the US is considered an "English-speaking country."
A CELTA is not a common qualification in the US. Indeed, I'd be surprised if a good number of employers would even be familiar with it. For example, none of the 22 teachers in the ESL program I manage at the community college have a CELTA, though most of them have MAs in TESOL and/or SIT TESOL certificates.
As for public schools: "Teaching jobs in public schools require licensing, and each state demands that its teachers meet its own qualification standards. Many states have special requirements beyond their basic license for specialists in Teaching Speakers of Other Languages. Usually (and this is my experience in Colorado and California), a Master’s Degree and passing a certification exam are required. Short answer: an IDELT or CELTA alone will not qualify you for those jobs. However, it is possible that some school districts may hire you on a probationary basis, and give you two years to complete the state requirements for licensure. These are usually school districts with a great demand for ESL teachers that are not able to fill all of the positions with regularly qualified teachers."
http://www.bridgetefl.com/can-i-teach-in-the-usa-with-a-tefl-certificate/
Regards,
John |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
| (and this is my experience in Colorado and California) |
Crikey!
I didn't know you worked in these states as well...I resided in both for six years a piece (1996-2008, respectively). In 1990 in Tennessee, the endorsement for a licensed teacher to instruct non-native speakers was a semester of applied linguistics at the local university during its content creation phase (second semester). The first semester was largely theory and readings, in which graduate foreign nationals (so termed then) from a range of disciplines participated. The idea was they'd return to their home countries with some knowledge of theory that would aid collaboration. The "core" (about eight individuals) of the group were completing Master's degrees in Linguistics, with one PhD candidate among them. I was one of two undergraduates permitted, the only students strongly urged to complete a summer practicum. Qualifications have long since been strengthened in the view of most. Those Master's students had a lot to say about many things, and the just evolving CELTA was one. Their opinions framed my own and the relative frustration I have with admins happy to tick a box to indicate the completion of a CELTA. Deciphering a transcript isn't as easy!
Denver's public school system was progressive in my view. I recall funding for a teachers' resource (an office and database) that provided aid to grant writing. |
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tommyjx
Joined: 26 Apr 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| A CELTA is not a common qualification in the US. |
It may not be, but in my understanding, the standards for teaching in the US are generally higher than elsewhere. A CELTA may not hold much weight for public school/academies, but you bet your butt that a generic TEFL holds even less.
Your frustration with CELTA teachers and admins "ticking boxes" is understandable, but I feel there is something you're overlooking about the difference between degree holders in applied linguistics and the like: what the CELTA does is teach you how to teach English (granted its a crash course, not a year long M.Ed. program), but how many applied linguistics degree holders actually know how to command a classroom in the absence of a M.Ed. or the like?
What administrators get when they hire CELTA grads is the knowledge that the candidate has completed a standardized program that taught him/her proven ESL teaching methodologies.
And by they way, I've been in public schools with applied linguistics grads who don't actually know anything about either English or teaching (the same can actually be said for one or two CELTA grads I know).
| Quote: |
| Actually, there are some of us (competent directors) who also accept SIT TESOL and Trinity qualifications as top-of-the-line certs. |
Of course I didn't mean to claim that ONLY the CELTA is a worthwhile certification, or that there is nothing comparable. I meant in no way to claim that only CELTA holders are competant, either. Sorry if it came across this way. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Irony missed.  You're arguing about competency while repeatedly misspelling it. Which is a minor detail to the issues, but its perception will dilute a position. Walk before you run, kinda thing. Between John, Spiral, and myself, I'm conservatively estimating sixty years of experience talkin' at ya'.
No, I haven't overlooked what classroom experience any one MA may, or may not, have because I'm not having to defend generalized statements. Because graduate education and its evaluation isn't ticking boxes or recognizing protocols of narrowly defined curricula.* It's not training, as distinctions are commonly applied. I'm now tempted to apply terms like snowflake and kool-aid. It's a big, diverse, and complicated world, and advocating any single protocol of certs (ugh, the very shortening can send a shiver) is specious.
But, to your credit, you're exploring issues that are rich with differences of opinion, claims, and conflicting information. It's true that a CELTA is preferable to its less intensive and audited imitations, but you're failing to acknowledge the weakness of such a comparative claim: Better than dreck, better than trash, isn't a glowing recommendation of any innate superiority.
*Some would say it's far more superficial  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| tommyjx wrote: |
We both have a passion for teaching English.
....
It may be a "well worn cliche", but I assure you the phrase is patently false in most cases, particularly in Asia. In my experience, the vast majority of teachers are there simply for lack of something better to do, and consider teaching ESL an extension of college: no real responsibility, partying all the time, etc... My girlfriend and I consider this our profession, and that's a big difference. |
It's a well-worn cliche that comes across as canned, which doesn't help your CV stand out nor indicate anything about the effectiveness of your teaching. (Heck, I have a passion for Häagen-Dazs dark chocolate ice cream!) Instead, give actual examples of how that has translated to your classroom --- your achievements, growth, and professional development as evidence of your "passion."
| tommyjx wrote: |
In my understanding, the standards for teaching in the US are generally higher than elsewhere. A CELTA may not hold much weight for public school/academies, but you bet your butt that a generic TEFL holds even less.
[The] frustration with CELTA teachers and admins "ticking boxes" is understandable, but I feel there is something you're overlooking about the difference between degree holders in applied linguistics and the like: what the CELTA does is teach you how to teach English (granted its a crash course, not a year long M.Ed. program), but how many applied linguistics degree holders actually know how to command a classroom in the absence of a M.Ed. or the like?
What administrators get when they hire CELTA grads is the knowledge that the candidate has completed a standardized program that taught him/her proven ESL teaching methodologies.
And by they way, I've been in public schools with applied linguistics grads who don't actually know anything about either English or teaching (the same can actually be said for one or two CELTA grads I know). |
Keep in mind that many American teachers possess an MA TESOL --- some degrees include a semester-long ESOL practicum. Additionally, graduate certificates in TESOL are also common options that lead to a master's degree. The point is, a standalone CELTA/equivalent TEFL cert is redundant for those (myself included) who have completed a degree program that included a practical component.
Take a look at TESOL.org's career page for job ads for US teaching opportunities in university IEPs; you'll rarely see the CELTA indicated as a requirement, if it's mentioned at all. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Dear buravirgil,
"I'm conservatively estimating sixty years of experience talkin' at ya'."
You two can figure out how to split the remaining 25 years. 
I don't do conservative. 
Regards,
John |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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By my reckoning (and since I'm first to reply to Johnslat), that leaves buravirgil with 6.5 years;-)
Maybe we should revise the original 60 upwards. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm readin' a lot of contentionin', but not a lotta factuatin'...
...24 years here... |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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So, more like 80. Jeepers, we're OLD. 
But here's the essential question: What do you two want to be when you grow up?
(Personally, I plan on only growing older, not up).
Regards,
John |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dear John
I'm already it:-) Absolutely love my job as head of a small department in a really great institution, with partners all over and the occasional project elsewhere - and the professional opportunities keep growing. I live in two fantastic places and my family are the best. I am grateful every day and could happily live just like this for hundreds of years (calling any neighborhood vampire who's handy, hint-hint).
Best,
spiral-in-the-groove |
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In the heat of the moment
Joined: 22 May 2015
Posts: 393
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| tommyjx wrote: |
Thanks for the positive feedback.
1. I guess I should have specified a "typical" academy in Korea/China: teaching children, no real curriculum, academy-as-daycare model. The schools where we taught in Australia were very focused and well run. These are schools which take ESL very seriously. |
There are schools in SE Asia which also take ESL seriously and are not a 'typical' (and god-awful) Korean hakwon/academy, I expect most of the other posters in this thread have worked/are working in at least one.
| tommyjx wrote: |
| Perhaps we don't have a lot of post-CELTA experience, but a CELTA is very different from a run-of-the-mill TEFL. Anyone who really knows the industry knows this, especially competant (sic) school directors. Go find a respectable school in an English speaking country who will even look at a CV without a CELTA. This is the fundamental difference between good schools and bad ones (along with many other differentiating factors). |
Either my reading comprehension is sub-par today or you aren't being clear; are you wanting to teach in an English-speaking country?
| tommyjx wrote: |
| Regarding our references: the schools in which we taught are international and highly respected. A competant (sic) hiring manager or director will not only know these schools, but will consider good recommendations more highly than experience at a less than reputable institution. Perhaps I haven't been in the industry that long, relatively speaking, but I do know the difference between schools serious about ESL and those which are not. |
I admire your confidence.
| tommyjx wrote: |
| Teaching in an "typical" academy in Korea or China would be a step backward because: to progress in our careers, the DELTA is on the horizon. Prerequisites for DELTA admission include at least 1 year post-CELTA experience, specifically teaching adult learners. So teaching in a "typical" Asian academy would be useless for us from a career perspective. |
I refer you to the answer to your first paragraph.
| tommyjx wrote: |
| 2. Being together is more important to us than money, so for now we're not considering the Middle East. |
That narrows it down a little; some progress there.
| tommyjx wrote: |
| 3. It may be a "well worn cliche", but I assure you the phrase is patently false in most cases, particularly in Asia. In my experience, the vast majority of teachers are there simply for lack of something better to do, and consider teaching ESL an extension of college: no real responsibility, partying all the time, etc... My girlfriend and I consider this our profession, and that's a big difference. |
It is is patently false in some cases, which is why many recruiters will dismiss it as unimaginative and displaying the author's inexperience.
| tommyjx wrote: |
| You're quite rude in saying someone's using a hackneyed phrase because they're passionate, and then you lump them in with unqualified wannabes. Rude and unhelpful. |
Hey, you asked for the advice! Just because you don't approve of it doesn't make it rude and unhelpful. I consider myself the least experienced - only taught for nine years, in six countries - of the posters here, trying to help you, and even I can recognise bluster and arrogance being used to overcompensate for inexperience. The TEFL World is smaller than you think, reputations spread quickly, so starting out is important which is why people are being honest and, admittedly, a little blunt with you. Maybe they would've been happy for more advice early on in their own careers, advice that you can now so easily obtain with just an open mind and internet connection? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dear In the heat of the moment,
If I could correct an attribution:
"You're quite rude in saying someone's using a hackneyed phrase because they're passionate, and then you lump them in with unqualified wannabes. Rude and unhelpful."
was one of Hod's contributions to the thread, not tommyjx's.
The style is the man.
Regards,
John |
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In the heat of the moment
Joined: 22 May 2015
Posts: 393
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops! Thanks John, and apologies to tommyjx. The rest still stands, we're here to help if you're still willing to listen (but maybe not to me as it seems my reading abilities could do with a little bit of work  ). |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Read? I have foundered to define. Taken the time to correct, but not bothered to doublecheck. Twice. I was nearly done in. |
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