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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| It is strange to me how the topic of doing demos so often stirs up such controversy. On one hand, there seems to be those who have had their degrees in TESOL and above average training, who are not "phased" by delivering a demo, as Nomad Soul said. |
That would be "fazed," as I noted. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
Given that many teachers uproot themselves and move to another country, which involves a considerable cost, and that recruitment is a time consuming and expensive process if work visas and work permits are involved, I think demo lessons are unreasonable.
As an example, we had a teacher that wasn't up to standard after he did his required observed lesson. Instead of firing him, he received constant support and lesson planning hello and now he is one of the better teachers.
Another example was a chap who also had a dodgy first observation lesson. He was constantly late and after given a verbal warning and a written warning, on his third strike he was cut loose. He had only himself to blame.
In short, it is up to the school to help the teacher as much as they can. I think this is better than showing a teacher the door after a bad lesson, especially given the fact that he/she might have flown across the world for the position. Personally, I think HR is largely to blame. |
Quite right, and an entirely different story. People who are recruited from overseas would not be hired or fired based on a demo. Demos are largely for people who walk in and can come to a face-to-face interview. |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think demos might be useful as I have said quite a few times. However, asking people to do one on the spot is not acceptable in my mind, although I don't think you meant that. Even telling someone that they should come in the next day to do a demo is not right, either. When I had to do demos in the UK the decent school gave me almost two weeks' notice and the useless school gave me barely two days. It is about professionalism and being responsible. I think that there is an ethical element to this in how we relate and deal with others. New teachers especially need some support and guidance. Just throwing them to the wolves can lead to poor results.
If a teacher is given proper notice, given the option to see the class in action prior to the demo, and provided with resources then I don't see why a demo would be anything to argue about. However, I think it needs some planning. A short 20 min demo also seems sensible. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking as a teacher, I think 2 weeks is completely overkill. Why would I need 2 weeks to prepare a lesson? Especially a 20 minute lesson? If I was given that time frame, I'd probably be more annoyed than anything since I'd want to start working as soon as possible, and I wouldn't even plan the lesson until the day before.
Would anyone seriously want to wait two weeks for a demo lesson and put off work that long instead of jumping into the job as soon as possible? For the record, the way my school does it is we ask for the demo as soon as possible, but the applicant can schedule it at their leisure. However, given how quickly jobs openings go in our school, I doubt any applicant who waits that long would still have a position to demo for.
As for a 20 minute demo, I would personally find it much, much harder to plan a solid 20 minute lesson than I would a 45-90 minute lesson. What would you even do in 20 minutes? That's enough for 2-3 solid activities and very little presentation of new material. Do you honestly think you could represent yourself as a teacher in 20 minutes? It's completely ridiculous in my opinion. |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| As I mentioned, I think a week is fair enough give or take. In a normal situation you get to know your students and don't just teach something to them in an abstract fashion. It is about being organised. Send out the email offering an interview in 5-6 days and state the demo lesson topic. Offer the applicant a chance to come in to chat, do some photocopying, and observe a lesson before the interview. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| currentaffairs wrote: |
| I think demos might be useful as I have said quite a few times. However, asking people to do one on the spot is not acceptable in my mind, although I don't think you meant that. Even telling someone that they should come in the next day to do a demo is not right, either. When I had to do demos in the UK the decent school gave me almost two weeks' notice and the useless school gave me barely two days. It is about professionalism and being responsible. I think that there is an ethical element to this in how we relate and deal with others. New teachers especially need some support and guidance. Just throwing them to the wolves can lead to poor results. |
Frankly, the "useless" school wasn't being unrealistic; two days is enough time to get a short demo lesson together. Besides, professionalism runs both ways. It's best to be prepared by always having a couple of lessons to either discuss or teach on a short notice. In fact, I've had a couple of interviews in which I was asked how I would teach X concept. And yes, they wanted details. Obviously, new teachers shouldn't be put in the hot seat, but there's no reason they can't keep a written lesson plan on hand to show at job interviews. Employers remember applicants who come prepared. |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: |
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[quote="nomad soul"]
| currentaffairs wrote: |
| Frankly, the "useless" school wasn't being unrealistic; two days is enough time to get a short demo lesson together. Besides, professionalism runs both ways. It's best to be prepared by always having a couple of lessons to either discuss or teach on a short notice. In fact, I've had a couple of interviews in which I was asked how I would teach X concept. And yes, they wanted details. Obviously, new teachers shouldn't be put in the hot seat, but there's no reason they can't keep a written lesson plan on hand to show at job interviews. Employers remember applicants who come prepared. |
Yes, they were being extremely unrealistic and unprofessional. They called me up on the Friday and asked for a one hour lesson on some principle of Kantian philosophy that I had never taught before for Monday morning. This wasn't an ESL lesson.. I had the weekend to get something together and the other interview with a one hour demo lesson was on the Tuesday. They then left a message on my answerphone on Monday morning (after I had left the house in good time for the interview) to change the time of the interview from 9am to 10am... When I arrived they blamed me for not checking my answerphone and arriving too early!
Yes, in a number of interviews the question comes up about an example of a good lesson and some explanation is required. Having a few sample lesson plans ready seems sensible. |
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RustyShackleford
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
There is a good chance I am out of touch for entry level work, but if someone has a BA and a CELTA, is it really necessary to do a demo?
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From what I've seen recently, yes. Very much so. I've seen a few fresh off their CELTA applicants who have all the right answers in the interview, but they simply cannot execute what they've said in an actual classroom. Of course a school can bite the bullet, invest in training them, and give them the experience they need... but most schools aren't going want to do that.
Most schools have probably experienced this several times. Someone can look great on paper, answer all the interview questions wonderfully, and walk you through an ideal lesson. If you hire them on that alone without actually seeing if they can implement what they say in a classroom, you're setting yourself and your students up for big disappointments.
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Having seen this in action AND having actually been the teacher disciplined for not doing what they hired to do THEN being trained and guided in being more effective, I am inclined to agree with this only to an extent. If a teacher is straying but is familiar with the theory, the job would do well to help their employee to be more effective for all parties.
However, if the person is unwilling to rectify any of their conduct, then they should be sent off. No one is entitled to a job, but everyone makes mistakes and it's not like anyone is gonna die even if the job gets mucked up. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| RustyShackleford wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
There is a good chance I am out of touch for entry level work, but if someone has a BA and a CELTA, is it really necessary to do a demo?
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From what I've seen recently, yes. Very much so. I've seen a few fresh off their CELTA applicants who have all the right answers in the interview, but they simply cannot execute what they've said in an actual classroom. Of course a school can bite the bullet, invest in training them, and give them the experience they need... but most schools aren't going want to do that.
Most schools have probably experienced this several times. Someone can look great on paper, answer all the interview questions wonderfully, and walk you through an ideal lesson. If you hire them on that alone without actually seeing if they can implement what they say in a classroom, you're setting yourself and your students up for big disappointments.
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Having seen this in action AND having actually been the teacher disciplined for not doing what they hired to do THEN being trained and guided in being more effective, I am inclined to agree with this only to an extent. If a teacher is straying but is familiar with the theory, the job would do well to help their employee to be more effective for all parties.
However, if the person is unwilling to rectify any of their conduct, then they should be sent off. No one is entitled to a job, but everyone makes mistakes and it's not like anyone is gonna die even if the job gets mucked up. |
I agree with this. Give the teacher some support but there has to come a time to cut them loose.
Also, it seems unfair to try and have instant rapport with new students and try and win them over in 30mins. I say a big no to a demo lesson. Give the teacher two weeks and then a full lesson with an experienced teacher as the observer. Bad lesson? Help the teacher work through the issues and then observation two two weeks later. Crap again? More help and if no improvement or a failure to change on the third lesson, show them the door. If some improvement but not a lot, continued monitoring and get the teacher to observe other teachers who are experienced. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I would say that's entirely up to the employer. If they are struggling to fill an available position because of a low number of applications, then it would make sense to take someone under your wing and train them up to be where they should be.
However, if they're receiving multiple applications every day from qualified teachers, then why would a school take the time and risk on someone who cannot perform right away?
I think most schools who require a demo just look at it as part of the application process in which the goal is to find the best possible teacher to fill an empty position. This is the way any company (non-teaching) hires. Most companies will have an initial interview, then 1-2 follow-up interviews which go more and more in-depth with their questioning. You have to pass each stage of the interview process to finally land the job in the end. All of these interview are unpaid and often require several hours of time invested, yet no one ever complains about them. I've even had to fill out an online questionnaire which took a good 2 hours to do, as part of an interviewing process at a company in the US. Balking at a demo lesson seems silly in comparison.
Demos are just another stage of the interview process, and if you can't perform one to the satisfaction of the employer, or if you refuse to do one at all, then why are they so terrible for refusing to hire you?
I'm not sure why, but it's only in the ESL field where there is a large sense of entitlement from prospective employees. In most other job application processes, if you balked at any stage of the process, then you know you'd be shown the door. But a lot of ESL teachers act like a school should be grateful that they decided to apply. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| Also, it seems unfair to try and have instant rapport with new students and try and win them over in 30mins. I say a big no to a demo lesson. Give the teacher two weeks and then a full lesson with an experienced teacher as the observer. Bad lesson? Help the teacher work through the issues and then observation two two weeks later. Crap again? More help and if no improvement or a failure to change on the third lesson, show them the door. If some improvement but not a lot, continued monitoring and get the teacher to observe other teachers who are experienced. |
There are two different situations here. A demo lesson is typically requested of job applicants as part of the interview; the interviewers want to assess the effectiveness of the applicant's teaching skills, personality/ability to engage learners, and classroom management (e.g., fielding students' questions, staying on point, timing of activities, choice of materials, English language knowledge, etc.). In a nutshell, the employer is determining whether the applicant will be a good fit.
On the other hand, classroom observations are used as an ongoing evaluative tool for practicing teachers as well as a training component for pre-service/novice teachers in a teacher training course. Both relate to teacher development and focus on what the teacher did well in addition to areas that need improvement.
As for winning over new students in a short time, that's what ice-breakers and learner-centered lessons do. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't do a demo lesson for several reason. Firstly, I think it doesn't represent a teacher's ability very well. Thirty minutes is a warmer, homework check maybe activity one. Secondly, from my experience in Vietnam, only very average schools require them or schools teaching kids, so basically I wouldn't work for such places.
Are demo lessons required by the big boys of RMIT, ACET or RES? What about the decent mills like ILA, LLV or APOLLO? I have never met anyone from those schools who were required to do a demo.
The schools I have worked at, which have all been at least "decent or better" , haven't had it as a requirement. As a result, a demo is a foreign concept to me.
I have been observed though, just as a way to make sure I can do what I said I can, and that I am not making any cultural mistakes. Again, my experiences differ in the respect that the observed lesson is a proper demo lesson, where you have built rapport and a two hour lesson is a decent amount of time where you can strut your stuff.
No sense of entitlement here, just an experienced teacher who thinks 30 min demos represents a pretty crappy school. If a school is getting very average applicants, maybe it is time to raise the bar a bit. However, if you're getting flotsam coming through the door, I guess a demo might seem appropriate. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
I wouldn't do a demo lesson for several reason. Firstly, I think it doesn't represent a teacher's ability very well. Thirty minutes is a warmer, homework check maybe activity one. Secondly, from my experience in Vietnam, only very average schools require them or schools teaching kids, so basically I wouldn't work for such places.
Are demo lessons required by the big boys of RMIT, ACET or RES? What about the decent mills like ILA, LLV or APOLLO? I have never met anyone from those schools who were required to do a demo.
The schools I have worked at, which have all been at least "decent or better" , haven't had it as a requirement. As a result, a demo is a foreign concept to me.
I have been observed though, just as a way to make sure I can do what I said I can, and that I am not making any cultural mistakes. Again, my experiences differ in the respect that the observed lesson is a proper demo lesson, where you have built rapport and a two hour lesson is a decent amount of time where you can strut your stuff.
No sense of entitlement here, just an experienced teacher who thinks 30 min demos represents a pretty crappy school. If a school is getting very average applicants, maybe it is time to raise the bar a bit. However, if you're getting flotsam coming through the door, I guess a demo might seem appropriate. |
Many schools do require demos. ILA, Apollo, and LLV definitely do. Many other reputable schools around the world also do, such as Wall Street, most Japanese schools, British Council, etc. BEfore coming to Vietnam, I did a lot of applying all over Asia. Probably a good 80% of the places I applied to said performing a demo was part of the application process.
In fact, I would be more worried about going to work for a school that DIDN'T ask me to perform a demo than one that did. Demos are easy, as they should be for any experienced teacher.
You don't have to demo at places like RMIT because it's a completely different type of school. It focuses on academic English, and has teachers who do lecturing as their primary form of teaching.
You're going to get "flotsam" coming through the door no matter how good of a reputation or how excellent your school is. And an excellent school will do everything they can, to keep it out. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
I wouldn't do a demo lesson for several reason. Firstly, I think it doesn't represent a teacher's ability very well. Thirty minutes is a warmer, homework check maybe activity one.
I have been observed though, just as a way to make sure I can do what I said I can, and that I am not making any cultural mistakes. Again, my experiences differ in the respect that the observed lesson is a proper demo lesson, where you have built rapport and a two hour lesson is a decent amount of time where you can strut your stuff. |
Uh, why would you do a homework check during a demo lesson for a job you're just interviewing for? As for building rapport, every teacher should have several short, tried-n-true, go-to activities as highly interactive warm ups or ice breakers. It's a no brainer given that one of the purposes of an interview, in general, is to make a connection with the employer.
| and kurtz wrote: |
| No sense of entitlement here, just an experienced teacher who thinks 30 min demos represents a pretty crappy school. If a school is getting very average applicants, maybe it is time to raise the bar a bit. However, if you're getting flotsam coming through the door, I guess a demo might seem appropriate. |
Flotsam? Ouch. Apparently that would include us experienced teachers with a TEFL-related BA/master's degree and/or a Delta or graduate cert in TESOL solely because we may have been bamboozled into giving... (gasp) a demo lesson! Keep in mind it's no different than an actor, dancer, musician, singer, etc., who auditions for a role; athletes trying out for a sport; artists/designers/writers who provide samples of their work to first-time clients...
It's obvious that your distaste for demo lessons stems from a lack of confidence. Any competent teacher should be able to pull off a short demo at an interview with no sweat -- it comes with the profession and is nothing to be offended by. Plus, it gives an indication about the quality of the teachers working there --- one's potential colleagues.
On a related note, I have an interview in a couple of weeks for a high-paying state government trainer position (I'm in the US) and was also informed that I need to come prepared with a 20-minute PowerPoint presentation on a specific healthcare-related topic. Based on your reasoning, I should just decline the interview invitation because I don't need to give no stinkin' demo; the fact that I have an MA in Teaching and Master of Ed Technology should be enough. Not! |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
Are demo lessons required by the big boys of RMIT, ACET or RES? |
Never worked at RES, but I did work at ACET and RMIT and I was not required to do a demo prior to getting the job/s. However, it's been a while now so, for all I know, that may have changed. Anyway, if it had been part of the application process/es, then, personally, I wouldn't have seen it as an issue. If that's one of the ways on how an employer wants to screen applicants then I think that's fair enough.
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
You don't have to demo at places like RMIT because it's a completely different type of school. It focuses on academic English, and has teachers who do lecturing as their primary form of teaching. |
As students became more advanced, there was a continually greater focus on academic English, but, many RMIT students were at beginner/elementary level so pushing an academic style, for those guys, didn't really come up until later. However, even if a school is focused on academic English then I wouldn't see how that's necessarily inconsistent with asking applicants to perform demos. They could just request a demo on, say, how as a teacher you would introduce the concept of topic sentences to a pre-intermediate class, or whatever.
| nomad soul wrote: |
On a related note, I have an interview in a couple of weeks for a high-paying state government trainer position (I'm in the US) and was also informed that I need to come prepared with a 20-minute PowerPoint presentation on a specific healthcare-related topic. |
Good luck! |
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