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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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 Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
That's real nice if your local consulate will accept your school's registrar's imprint, but the website DOES state that one must go to one's local department of state. There's no changing that. One may be successful in bypassing the consulate's dictum, but I don't think one will be successful in changing what is on the website.
Besides, if one attended a university on the other side of the country, it might actually be more convenient to prevail upon one's local secretary of state than to send it off to the university's registrar who may not even know what to do with your document. |
Uh, reread my response. By the way, university registrars aren't clueless about this process; it's a routine function of the office.
Additionally, from the US State Department:
| Quote: |
Authentication of American Academic Credentials for Use Abroad
I. Colleges, Universities and Other Post-Secondary Institutions1. Obtain from the registrar of the University an official true copy of the credentials. The registrar should then execute an affidavit attesting to the validity of the document before a notary public. Frequently the business offices of colleges and universities have notaries public.
2. Take the document, with the notarial certificate to the state Notary Public Administrator for authentication. If the country where the document will be used is a party to the Hague Apostille Convention, the state Notary Public Administrator will affix an Apostille certificate and no further authentication is necessary. See the Hague Conference on Private International Law Apostille Page for a current list of countries party to the treaty. The treaty is in force many countries throughout the world.
3. If the country is not a party to the Hague Apostille Convention, the state Notary Public Administrator will affix a state authentication certificate. You should then send the document to the Authentications Office of the Department of State, following the instruction on that office’s web page.
4. If necessary, obtain authentication of the U.S. Department of State seal at the foreign embassy in Washington, D.C. The embassy in Washington, DC of the country in which the document is to be used can tell you if this is required.
Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/abroad/legal-matters/academic-credentials.html |
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Okay, Cowgirl:
China is a signatory to the various Hague Agreements, including the one that covers the acceptance of official documents of other countries. If China gave a darn about the directives of the Hague Agreement, FTs wouldn't have to go through this rigamarole at all aside from the Chinese government's own authentication process. If one thinks that one's alma mater's imprimatur will cover all bases, then he should follow these directives.
However, the Chinese government reinstated the apostillization requirement because of the many forged and faked degrees that a number of FTs have used to get a job in the PRC. For this reason, I'd ignore any directives or advice from the Bureau of Passports. It doesn't follow prescribed Chinese protocol, and any other route is subject to failure.
Besides, how much more convenient is it to hassle with one's university when one can just do as the Chinese government requires and just send the degree to the Chinese and American entities that it requires?
One of the wisest things I've read about living in China on this board is this: "In China, if you want to get along, you must go along."
I promise you this: someone who works in a Chinese consulate is much more likely to accept something that follows Beijing's protocol than Washington, DC's (or any other country's) protocol. It's unlikely that a paper shuffler in the Chinese consulate has even heard of the Hague Agreement.
Swim against the current at your own risk. |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Shootin' back atcha (but hit my own foot):
https://www.gsccca.org/notary-and-apostilles/apostilles/hague-apostille-country-list
There are several Hague Treaties and Agreements. China may have backed out some of them. Same thing with the Dayton Accord. That seems to be the case with apostillization.
The above-referenced website was updated this year. It shows Hong Kong and Macau only, so something changed since I had my documents apostilled in 2003. Mainland China must have backed out of the agreement that it signed in November, 2004.
One problem with being a know-it-all is that the one thing that one doesn't know is what he doesn't know.
Apologies to all (especially NomadSoul) and I thank you for the correction.
I stand corrected (in the corner with a dunce cap).
Something to consider: Isn't it imperative that one follow the Chinese consulate's directive than trying to go against the flow? (Hey, I've got to save face here. It ain't too pretty, but it's worth savin'). |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud: the fact that China isn't a signatory actually strengthens your argument that applicants should do things according to the Chinese consulate's requirements. The apostille is an international system. China doesn't recognize it, so you need to use their system. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Shanghai Noon wrote: |
| Bud: the fact that China isn't a signatory actually strengthens your argument that applicants should do things according to the Chinese consulate's requirements. The apostille is an international system. China doesn't recognize it, so you need to use their system. |
I realized that, but I chose to remain humbled.
Humility is a virtue.
Hey, wait.
AND SO IS THE ABILITY TO FOLLOW THE RULES!
Thanks you, SN. My self esteem has returned fourfold. I shall be insufferable until the next time I'm wrong (which will probably be about four posts after this one). |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Bud: the fact that China isn't a signatory actually strengthens your argument that applicants should do things according to the Chinese consulate's requirements. The apostille is an international system. China doesn't recognize it, so you need to use their system. |
I realized that, but I chose to remain humbled.
Humility is a virtue.
Hey, wait.
AND SO IS THE ABILITY TO FOLLOW THE RULES!
Thanks you, SN. My self esteem has returned fourfold. I shall be insufferable until the next time I'm wrong (which will probably be about four posts after this one). |
Why wouldn't the process not follow the specific country's requirements? That was never in dispute since each country has its own guidelines. My issue was that the process should start with one's university registrar before it goes to the state's Secretary of State. In fact, in my case, the SoS requires notarized academic documents originate from the university registrar's office, so you might check the SoS website in the state where your university is located. After that, you're expected to follow the requirements outlined by the country requiring authentication/attestation. It's a no-brainer.
Having the diploma affirmed and notarized by your registrar confirms your attendance and graduation in X major from that university --- that your diploma is a bona fide academic qualification and not some bogus piece of paper. If there's any doubt about your university's accreditation, any foreign entity can easily look that info up with US Dept of Education.
When I needed to have my degree authenticated for the UAE, my prospective UAE employer emailed me the process --- what to do after the diploma was authenticated by the state's SoS. I first contacted my university registrar and asked about ordering a new diploma and having it authenticated. The first question the registrar's office asked was for which country. Again, they handled the process through the state's SoS. On the back of my diploma is an affidavit signed by the registrar stating: "I, XX, University Registrar, certify that this is a true copy of the original diploma presented to (my name) on (conferral date)." The university's notary public included her notary block below his affidavit and signature, and embossed the diploma with her notary seal. The university then submitted it to the state's SoS, who attached a signed Certificate of Authority for a Notary Public, which indicates the document is a "Degree of Master of Arts in Teaching" and confirms that the university's notary public is registered with the state. (Keep in mind that notaries public only authentic signatures and official seals. I used to be a notary, by the way.) The process for the Emirates at that time was that after the SoS does it certification, I would submit the document to the Office of Authentications at the federal level (the UAE is not a party to the Hague Convention). I ended up accepting a position in another country in the ME, so I didn't finish the process at that point. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Why wouldn't the process not follow the specific country's requirements? That was never in dispute since each country has its own guidelines.
Uh... read China's guidelines. I refer you to the referenced consulate's website. You can try a workaround, but that's not a good plan. Failure to plan is a plan for failure.
No point in arguing about it. I won't even say "I told you so."
Proceed your own way at your own risk. |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
Thanks you, SN. My self esteem has returned fourfold. I shall be insufferable until the next time I'm wrong (which will probably be about four posts after this one). |
You is welcome, BP. You are hard of reading, so I'll be on the lookout for your next misstep. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
Uh... read China's guidelines. I refer you to the referenced consulate's website. You can try a workaround, but that's not a good plan. Failure to plan is a plan for failure.
No point in arguing about it. I won't even say "I told you so." |
Are my posts mysteriously being changed into Klingon?  I clearly stated that each country has its own guidelines, meaning that the process is in accordance with the foreign country's requirements. In this case: China. So I have no clue as to what workaround you claim I'm putting out there.
Here's what I stated:Step 1: University registrar affirms the diploma and conferral as authentic. His/her signature then gets notarized by a university notary public.
Step 2: The document then heads off to the state's Secretary of State (not to be confused with the Secretary of State at the federal level). The state's SoS then affixes a signed certificate attesting to the notary public's current registration. Done. (Some state laws require that diplomas be affirmed and notarized by the university. Otherwise, the state's SoS will not accept them. Check with the state your university notary is located in.)
Step 3: Depends on the foreign country's requirements. In other words, follow their process from this point forward.
Here's the China process per the link you provided for authentication procedures for general documents:
| Quote: |
Step 1 Have your document notarized by a local notary public unless it is an original certified copy/certification issued by a competent Federal/ State/local Office.
Step 2 The document needs further to be authenticated by the Secretary of the State where it is executed. Some states require that the document be certified by the County Clerk first. For Federally issued certifications, skip this step, go directly to Step 3.
Step 3: If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check ourservice area map) over you state, you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it. (Please note that your legalization application may be rejected by the Embassy/Consulate General that does not hold consular jurisdiction over the state where your document is executed.)
Your source: http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/gzrz/rzcx/ |
So unless you can tell me where exactly I'm "off" on this, we'll have to agree to disagree. |
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Longer
Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
That's real nice if your local consulate will accept your school's registrar's imprint, but the website DOES state that one must go to one's local department of state. There's no changing that. One may be successful in bypassing the consulate's dictum, but I don't think one will be successful in changing what is on the website.
Besides, if one attended a university on the other side of the country, it might actually be more convenient to prevail upon one's local secretary of state than to send it off to the university's registrar who may not even know what to do with your document. |
Uh, reread my response. By the way, university registrars aren't clueless about this process; it's a routine function of the office.
Additionally, from the US State Department:
| Quote: |
Authentication of American Academic Credentials for Use Abroad
I. Colleges, Universities and Other Post-Secondary Institutions1. Obtain from the registrar of the University an official true copy of the credentials. The registrar should then execute an affidavit attesting to the validity of the document before a notary public. Frequently the business offices of colleges and universities have notaries public.
2. Take the document, with the notarial certificate to the state Notary Public Administrator for authentication. If the country where the document will be used is a party to the Hague Apostille Convention, the state Notary Public Administrator will affix an Apostille certificate and no further authentication is necessary. See the Hague Conference on Private International Law Apostille Page for a current list of countries party to the treaty. The treaty is in force many countries throughout the world.
3. If the country is not a party to the Hague Apostille Convention, the state Notary Public Administrator will affix a state authentication certificate. You should then send the document to the Authentications Office of the Department of State, following the instruction on that office’s web page.
4. If necessary, obtain authentication of the U.S. Department of State seal at the foreign embassy in Washington, D.C. The embassy in Washington, DC of the country in which the document is to be used can tell you if this is required.
Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/abroad/legal-matters/academic-credentials.html |
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Thanks for a great linkl! But this only deals with American unis. There are no less than two dozen fake unis in the U.K. and a handful in Australia as well. Also China does not accept degrees from Online Universities even though most of their own damn universities offer online programs! Heres a bunch more universities from Russia, Belgium, Liberia, etc. http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.com/2014/09/warning-safea-psb-and-ministry-of.html |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Nomad:
You said: My issue was that the process should start with one's university registrar before it goes to the state's Secretary of State..
The Chinese government doesn't give a flip about the university's authentication. The degree should be stamped with the state seal anyway, but that seems not to be good enough for the Chinese because it is no longer a signatory to the Hague as it was in 2004. So no, the first step in the process of being approved in China wouldn't be with the university.
I highly suggest that one follow the directives of the Chinese consulate. |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| That, and superfluous stamps can complicate the process. I knew a guy who got his degree notarized (in the days before any notarization was required). SAFEA made him take the notary seal to a translation company. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
Nomad:
You said: My issue was that the process should start with one's university registrar before it goes to the state's Secretary of State..
The Chinese government doesn't give a flip about the university's authentication. The degree should be stamped with the state seal anyway, but that seems not to be good enough for the Chinese because it is no longer a signatory to the Hague as it was in 2004. So no, the first step in the process of being approved in China wouldn't be with the university.
I highly suggest that one follow the directives of the Chinese consulate. |
The Chinese government may not "give a flip" about the university registrar's signature on the diploma; however, the state's Secretary of State very likely does, and frankly, you should too.
As I've stated ad nauseam, the state's SoS likely requires that the diploma originate from the university bearing the registrar's signature. This is per regulation in my particular state; the SoS would have rejected my diploma if my own notarized signature was on it or if I'd submitted a photocopy of the document.
Additionally, the process for apostilles and authentications start out the same way (i.e., with the notarized diploma). Once it reaches the state's office, the SoS: 1) verifies the signature and status of the notary public who witnessed the signature on the diploma; and 2) then attaches either an apostille or a certificate of authentication to the diploma based on the country of destination. Again, for apostilles (i.e., Hague signatories), the process is complete at that point. But for those diplomas slated for a country that's not a party to the Hague Convention (like China), the process then follows that country's specific requirements. (The link included in my previous post shows a list of Chinese Consulate-Generals located in the US.)
For those who are unsure of what to do, contact your university registrar or the Office of the Secretary of State in the state your university is located in. Check their websites. Getting a diploma authenticated can be costly and time consuming, so you want to ensure you're following the correct process and requirements. Be smart about it and don't try to cut corners.
Anyway, that's my final word on this topic. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Do Not Recognise My School on Approved List |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
Hey -
I've heard that in America some new teachers going through the Z-visa process need to authenticate their degrees.
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The authorities in the area of the school are requiring you to get an apostille attached to your highest degree along and also your transcripts. After that you have to have your apostilled degree handed to the Chinese consulate that deals with the area that your university is in and pick it up several days later with the authentication document from the embassy. The authentication can be handled by an official courier if you don't want to spend the money to travel and stay in a hotel.
To have your degree and transcripts apostilled talk to the Registrar at your university. That in of itself is a lengthy process.
I find it odd that a country that doesn't acknowledge the Hague Convention pertaining to apostilles is demanding that teachers get one. Besides it is difficult to fake official transcripts. Official transcripts either have special properties or they're printed on paper that is like money and in color. It is for this reason that transcripts are the standard. You still however have these weirdo countries that have "special" procedures that prospective teachers have to put up with. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Do Not Recognise My School on Approved List |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
I find it odd that a country that doesn't acknowledge the Hague Convention pertaining to apostilles is demanding that teachers get one. Besides it is difficult to fake official transcripts. Official transcripts either have special properties or they're printed on paper that is like money and in color. It is for this reason that transcripts are the standard. You still however have these weirdo countries that have "special" procedures that prospective teachers have to put up with. |
Way back when it was generally believed by the Chinese consulate in Washington, D.C., that China had signed on to the Hague Agreements and the Dayton Accord, one did not need to go through this rigamarole because the agreements pertained to signatory countries recognizing official documents of other countries. In short, an official document issued by an officially recognized institution or department of one government would be recognized by another country's government. The idea was that if school A carried the state government seal or a seal or mark recognized by the signatory country, it would be recognized by another signatory country.
I wasn't asked for transcripts and I didn't submit any transcripts recently. When was this requirement added?
In other words, one document requires one registered seal or mark denoting that the document is bona fide.
In 2003, my consulate did not believe that China had signed onto the Hague Agreements and the Dayton Accords, so many FTs who wanted to play by the rules endured through the rigamarole prescribed by at least one consulate. (I know of some FTs who didn't go through what I went through. In China, there are ALWAYS exceptions). In 2004, the same consulate changed the apostillization requirement, citing the "fact" that China had signed onto the Hague agreements and the Dayton Accords.
Both agreements addressed intellectual property rights, so shortly after the agreements were supposedly signed, DVD shops that sold copies of Mission Impossible Starring Tom Crooze were busted.
So now, the new fact is that China never signed onto the Hague Agreement, so a lot of people are going through a lot of rigamarole.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. |
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