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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
I'm out of touch at this point from having moved on from teaching a few years back, but was in BC circles in several capacities for a few years in Latin America and North Africa and had friends and co-workers moving to and from other centres in other regions.
One insight and agreement that comes out of our discussion is that there is quite a lot of variance in terms of pay and benefits among teaching centres. I'll leave it at that as my original comment in this thread was made half in jest/tongue in cheek. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
I'm out of touch at this point from having moved on from teaching a few years back, but was in BC circles in several capacities for a few years in Latin America and North Africa and had friends and co-workers moving to and from other centres in other regions.
One insight and agreement that comes out of our discussion is that there is quite a lot of variance in terms of pay and benefits among teaching centres. I'll leave it at that as my original comment in this thread was made half in jest/tongue in cheek. |
Here's a band 7 job that came out last week with school fees provided.
MOD EDIT
You're right in the sense that there's a lot of variety and the people you knew who were assistant centre managers may have been only on a band 6 to reduce costs. They could also have been managers of small centres or satellite centres. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: |
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The problem is that 'ESL work' is such a wide category, involving everything from language centre work to university positions to freelancing to working in local schools. The variety in working conditions, pay, benefits and career potential is huge and that isn't even taking into account differences between regions around the world. Likewise different posters are likely to have very different experiences.
I also stand by my earlier statement that opportunities still exist but several questions remain that will greatly influence the OP's decision:
1. Whether the OP's wife intends to work or not.
2. Whether they intend to have children.
3. What kind of lifestyle they expect.
4. What kind of savings level they expect. |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
The problem is that 'ESL work' is such a wide category, involving everything from language centre work to university positions to freelancing to working in local schools. The variety in working conditions, pay, benefits and career potential is huge and that isn't even taking into account differences between regions around the world. Likewise different posters are likely to have very different experiences.
I also stand by my earlier statement that opportunities still exist but several questions remain that will greatly influence the OP's decision:
1. Whether the OP's wife intends to work or not.
2. Whether they intend to have children.
3. What kind of lifestyle they expect.
4. What kind of savings level they expect. |
Agreed. The main purpose in my posts above was to drive home that the idea of traveling the world with a spouse and children in tow is largely a fantasy best left to 1950s expat novels - and this austerity extends well above the pay grade of teachers to encompass most managerial types as well. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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It's only 'beyond your pay grade' if you expect things like your kids having a western education, living in a western style house and going on family holidays every year to see the grandparents back home.
Even in the West (especially in the West?) it's difficult for one man to support a family of four. The reality of life now is that women have to work too (and most do!). So that brings us to point one. Don't get involved with a gold digger who expects to do nothing while you buy everything for her.
Secondly, forget about sending your kids to posh international schools. The local school system will do just fine. Your partner attended a local school, and she turned out OK, right?
Dial down your housing expectations. In many of the largest cities in Asia where TEFL demand is high, space is at a premium, and fully fledged 3 bedroom houses with outside gardens cost exorbitant amounts of money. You'll be living in an apartment or condo unit like everyone else.
A family of four based in Europe will typically holiday within Europe in order to keep flights and visa costs down. For example, a German family might go for a holiday in Spain. If you're working abroad, go on family holidays to places near you. Forget about flying 4 people over from Japan to the UK every year to see extended family. As a one off it might be alright, but certainly not every year. Your holidays should be in places like Thailand and the Philippines instead.
I see no reason following the above guidelines why an EFL'er couldn't have a family. By and large, an ESL teacher earns more than the average local salary, and rest assured plenty of the locals have wives and kids. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It's only 'beyond your pay grade' if you expect things like your kids having a western education, living in a western style house and going on family holidays every year to see the grandparents back home.
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Yep |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
I'm out of touch at this point from having moved on from teaching a few years back, but was in BC circles in several capacities for a few years in Latin America and North Africa and had friends and co-workers moving to and from other centres in other regions.
One insight and agreement that comes out of our discussion is that there is quite a lot of variance in terms of pay and benefits among teaching centres. I'll leave it at that as my original comment in this thread was made half in jest/tongue in cheek. |
Here's a band 7 job that came out last week with school fees provided.
MOD EDIT
You're right in the sense that there's a lot of variety and the people you knew who were assistant centre managers may have been only on a band 6 to reduce costs. They could also have been managers of small centres or satellite centres. |
Every example I gave was managers at main centres in capital cities in 3 continents.
I don't know how many BC teaching centre managers you know or have run across, but I would challenge you to try to think of what percentage of them had children with them enrolled in a local fee-based school. |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
It's only 'beyond your pay grade' if you expect things like your kids having a western education, living in a western style house and going on family holidays every year to see the grandparents back home.
Even in the West (especially in the West?) it's difficult for one man to support a family of four. The reality of life now is that women have to work too (and most do!). So that brings us to point one. Don't get involved with a gold digger who expects to do nothing while you buy everything for her.
Secondly, forget about sending your kids to posh international schools. The local school system will do just fine. Your partner attended a local school, and she turned out OK, right?
Dial down your housing expectations. In many of the largest cities in Asia where TEFL demand is high, space is at a premium, and fully fledged 3 bedroom houses with outside gardens cost exorbitant amounts of money. You'll be living in an apartment or condo unit like everyone else.
A family of four based in Europe will typically holiday within Europe in order to keep flights and visa costs down. For example, a German family might go for a holiday in Spain. If you're working abroad, go on family holidays to places near you. Forget about flying 4 people over from Japan to the UK every year to see extended family. As a one off it might be alright, but certainly not every year. Your holidays should be in places like Thailand and the Philippines instead.
I see no reason following the above guidelines why an EFL'er couldn't have a family. By and large, an ESL teacher earns more than the average local salary, and rest assured plenty of the locals have wives and kids. |
I think parents can decide for themselves what school system 'will do just fine' and in most of the non-rich world - which constitutes at least half the globe - the local school system would be problematic at best. Think classrooms with dangerous conditions, holes in the walls/roof, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, no air conditioning in dangerously hot climates, and in some cases high rates of violence and endemic cheating. Foreign English teachers wouldn't dream of working in most public school systems, so it's a little odd to say they should serve just fine for their children.
I have no issue with the contention that things are tight for everybody in the middle class. That's a point I make repeatedly in this forum - while pay and benefits have gone down for TEFL teachers over the years, they also have for middle class in rich countries. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
I'm out of touch at this point from having moved on from teaching a few years back, but was in BC circles in several capacities for a few years in Latin America and North Africa and had friends and co-workers moving to and from other centres in other regions.
One insight and agreement that comes out of our discussion is that there is quite a lot of variance in terms of pay and benefits among teaching centres. I'll leave it at that as my original comment in this thread was made half in jest/tongue in cheek. |
Here's a band 7 job that came out last week with school fees provided.
MOD EDIT
You're right in the sense that there's a lot of variety and the people you knew who were assistant centre managers may have been only on a band 6 to reduce costs. They could also have been managers of small centres or satellite centres. |
Every example I gave was managers at main centres in capital cities in 3 continents.
I don't know how many BC teaching centre managers you know or have run across, but I would challenge you to try to think of what percentage of them had children with them enrolled in a local fee-based school. |
Here's the specs for the ATCM job you mentioned in Tunisia, which provides school fees. Whether or not your friend took advantage of that is a different matter.
https://www.britishcouncil.org/new/PageFiles/16651/ATCM%20Tunis.pdf |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: |
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It is all moot considering the OP disappeared last May.
. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| spanglish wrote: |
I think parents can decide for themselves what school system 'will do just fine' and in most of the non-rich world - which constitutes at least half the globe - the local school system would be problematic at best. Think classrooms with dangerous conditions, holes in the walls/roof, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, no air conditioning in dangerously hot climates, and in some cases high rates of violence and endemic cheating. Foreign English teachers wouldn't dream of working in most public school systems, so it's a little odd to say they should serve just fine for their children.
I have no issue with the contention that things are tight for everybody in the middle class. That's a point I make repeatedly in this forum - while pay and benefits have gone down for TEFL teachers over the years, they also have for middle class in rich countries. |
If you don't have the salary to fork out for an international school (most TEFL'ers don't) then the local school system will do just fine as that'll be your only option. You can't just decide to fly business class when your budget only supports economy, and neither can you just pick a school that you want your kids to go to without thinking about the costs.
You talk like a lot of schools are warzones. They're not. Yes, in some countries they practice rote learning rather than critical thinking. In some places if your child acts like a brat the cane will come out, rather than western style detention. In some places they'll be a lot more homework than the West. None of these things should be deal breakers and you shouldn't be put off having kids because of a local school system.
Let's not forget in some places the local schools actually do better than schools back home. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| I think parents can decide for themselves what school system 'will do just fine' and in most of the non-rich world - which constitutes at least half the globe - the local school system would be problematic at best. |
If you don't have the salary to fork out for an international school (most TEFL'ers don't) then the local school system will do just fine as that'll be your only option.
....
Yes, in some countries they practice rote learning rather than critical thinking. In some places if your child acts like a brat the cane will come out, rather than western style detention. In some places they'll be a lot more homework than the West. None of these things should be deal breakers and you shouldn't be put off having kids because of a local school system. |
Don't assume public schools abroad open their doors to expat dependents. Education ministries' first and foremost responsibility is to educate their citizens; giving slots to foreigners defeats that purpose. Additionally, there are obvious language barriers since expat children aren't likely to speak and write the language of instruction. You can't assume all public schools around the world use English. Ditto for curriculum and instructional differences in terms of cultural/political ideologies, course content, academic standards, instructional strategies, etc. Expat children would lack that crucial continuation of their western-curriculum education.
Those expats who can't afford to send their dependents to private schools are more likely to homeschool them, especially if, at some point, the children are expected to return home for high school or university. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Don't assume public schools abroad open their doors to expat dependents. Education ministries' first and foremost responsibility is to educate their citizens; giving slots to foreigners defeats that purpose. Additionally, there are obvious language barriers since expat children aren't likely to speak and write the language of instruction. You can't assume all public schools around the world use English. Ditto for curriculum and instructional differences in terms of cultural/political ideologies, course content, academic standards, instructional strategies, etc. Expat children would lack that crucial continuation of their western-curriculum education.
Those expats who can't afford to send their dependents to private schools are more likely to homeschool them, especially if, at some point, the children are expected to return home for high school or university. |
But if I have kids while teaching ESL in another country, I'd expect my kids to grow up knowing the language of that country. They'd be citizens, so would be entitled to local school education.
For example...let's say I teach ESL in Korea, meet a nice Korean lady, and we have a child. That child will be Korean, and have a Korean passport. They can go to a Korean school and will know how to speak Korean. There's only issues if I decide that I want us all to move country.
Yes you have to find a country you like, a job you like, and settle down there. But who really wants to be moving every couple of years? It's OK in your early 20s but eventually most will want a more permanent place. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
Don't assume public schools abroad open their doors to expat dependents. Education ministries' first and foremost responsibility is to educate their citizens; giving slots to foreigners defeats that purpose. Additionally, there are obvious language barriers since expat children aren't likely to speak and write the language of instruction. You can't assume all public schools around the world use English. Ditto for curriculum and instructional differences in terms of cultural/political ideologies, course content, academic standards, instructional strategies, etc. Expat children would lack that crucial continuation of their western-curriculum education.
Those expats who can't afford to send their dependents to private schools are more likely to homeschool them, especially if, at some point, the children are expected to return home for high school or university. |
But if I have kids while teaching ESL in another country, I'd expect my kids to grow up knowing the language of that country. They'd be citizens, so would be entitled to local school education.
For example...let's say I teach ESL in Korea, meet a nice Korean lady, and we have a child. That child will be Korean, and have a Korean passport. They can go to a Korean school and will know how to speak Korean. There's only issues if I decide that I want us all to move country.
Yes you have to find a country you like, a job you like, and settle down there. But who really wants to be moving every couple of years? It's OK in your early 20s but eventually most will want a more permanent place. |
Given that scenario, you're expecting numerous variables to all be in perfect alignment, including landing a job in a country with a well-rounded public school system and marrying a national who's in total agreement of your plans (since you state you'd be making all the decisions).
However, your children would also be able to read and write whatever the national language is if they attended a private school. But frankly, if your income won't be enough to support your family and send your children to schools that provide them with a bilingual, western/British education, then perhaps you should think twice about getting married and having children until you could afford to do so.
Last edited by nomad soul on Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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