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JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| simon44 wrote: |
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Rote learning isn't usually the best method, because what are they really learning? Are they understanding what they are learning? Likely not at all.
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You make an important point. Rote-learning is common in Asian schools. My role is to try to get the kids to think and then speak. Some of them are very good and will offer 'It is a big red pen', or 'but I have a blue pen' etc. That's when teaching really becomes satisfying, not just getting them to repeat ad nauseum. |
For some of the older elementary students, I'd suggest even expanding this language to, "What do we use a pen for?" Answer: to write with. "What is your favorite color?" Answer: My favorite color is blue. "Why do you like blue?" Answer: My room is blue. These are just examples. This can make learning more meaningful and interesting for the children. It does ask for more advanced understanding of the five W's (questions). |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| simon44 wrote: |
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| So you're basically toeing a line in order to collect a paycheck. |
Utter rubbish! The textbook content, the pace at which the children learn and the overall teaching methodology of the school is excellent.
I asked a simple question about some practical methods for encouraging young students to try to speak in full phrases or sentences, and I obtained a very good answer ==> use a slinky.
I fully support the school in the manner in which they teach EFL, and I am given a very free hand to implement my own lessons in the manner that I see fit, with the proviso that the content that I teach (vocab, grammar etc) is in line with the content of the textbooks that are used to teach reading and writing.
There is zero pressure placed on me by my employers or teaching colleagues to teach in a particular manner.
Some people assume too much from a simple question.... |
Santi clearly expressed reservations, as have I. If you don't wish to develop more effective (more communicatively- and cognitively-compelling) methodology, fine, that's your "choice", but with respect, what I and any others who are experienced, informed and with reservations post is never 'utter rubbish' (and I posted more than a single line over two replies). Again, I would suggest you read papers like Richards', or indeed anything essentially empirical, as it's all pretty compelling and convincing stuff. Or if you are going to continue to construct alternate realities regardless, can they at least be internally if not quite externally convincing, in the way that say the stuff that Nabokov learnt by was? ( http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=883931#883931 ).
Kids have to start somewhere, and stating the obvious is often a large part of what passes for so-called education the world over, but if you keep stating the obvious (e.g. 'What is a pen for?', though Jo's other example regarding the what's and why's of a fave colour is better, yet still hardly excitement itself) then you are largely confining yourself and your students to rather non-linguistic types of knowledge than actually speaking in any meaningful sense. You will sure need to change your methodology somewhat with older students, who are and need to be freer actors if they are to ever fulfil their possible communicative wants and needs in certainly the foreign language. But IMHO and E, even younger children have communicative wants and needs sometimes.
That is, it is like you are reading the definitions from a dictionary ('...for writing with ink' http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/pen_1?q=pen ) than the examples (but the following is invented, off the top of my head: 'I got a nice new pen the other day, here, have a try' 'Ooh, very nice'. (A bit Mrs Brady Old Lady but WTH, at least it's communicating something)). And if you want to start saying something about writing (or rather, why people may have need to remark on the fact that they are writing something), then you'll maybe need to take a look at the entry for 'write' and/or start thinking about that word instead, and how (and why) it gets communicatively dovetailed into "whatever" talk. No word should ever be too incidental to mere target fixations "elsewhere". Language is a holistic system of checks and balances.
Returning to colours, I think the only or few times certainly adults remark on them is when trying to describe e.g. a colour or two that they fancy from a wall paint chart for decorating - 'What colour would you say that is?'. It is hardly a very useful or productive area for teaching regardless of age, so the most one has to do is find ways to actually remark on colour e.g. "Bad choices": (Man) 'What do you think of my new T Shirt!' (B) 'Why [did you choose] pink?!'; "Lost property": 'I've lost my suitcase/pen/t-shirt'. 'What colour is it?' '...'. But hey, not trying to ring any bells or get the creative juices flowing here, nuh uh.
TL:DR answer to the thread title is 'You shouldn't, not when the questions are about exceedingly obvious things that absolutely don't deserve any more than bare minimum answers. Ellipsis etc is a reality, even in English. To expect otherwise is to produce unnatural behaviour and consequently an exercise in inefficiency and frustration. But if you're so worried that the students aren't producing enough sentences (versus "mere" utterances), take the supposed slack up elsewhere in the syllabus why don't you'. Your loyalty should ultimately be to the language, not to employers, who often do not know better, at least not when it comes to English.
FWIW here is an example of a doubly-redundant long answer (as even the form of the verb used didn't ultimately matter!). Read it and weep at the pointless pits and traps that some teachers seem wont to lay for their long-suffering students.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=97205
Last edited by fluffytwo on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:41 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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WARNING
If you come here to participate in civil discussion while respecting other posting members, you are most welcome and we appreciate your participation.
On the other hand, if your reason for being here is to insult and otherwise take shots at other members, you will find your continued tenure here promptly and directly affected by the degree to which you engage in such unacceptable behavior.
Members observing unacceptable postings of the type noted above are advised not to respond on the public board. Instead, promptly bring the matter to the attention of the Mod Team by Report Post or PM.
We will sort it all out quickly and most efficiently to the benefit of all concerned.
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JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| fluffytwo wrote: |
| simon44 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So you're basically toeing a line in order to collect a paycheck. |
Utter rubbish! The textbook content, the pace at which the children learn and the overall teaching methodology of the school is excellent.
I asked a simple question about some practical methods for encouraging young students to try to speak in full phrases or sentences, and I obtained a very good answer ==> use a slinky.
I fully support the school in the manner in which they teach EFL, and I am given a very free hand to implement my own lessons in the manner that I see fit, with the proviso that the content that I teach (vocab, grammar etc) is in line with the content of the textbooks that are used to teach reading and writing.
There is zero pressure placed on me by my employers or teaching colleagues to teach in a particular manner.
Some people assume too much from a simple question.... |
Santi clearly expressed reservations, as have I. If you don't wish to develop more effective (more communicatively- and cognitively-compelling) methodology, fine, that's your "choice", but with respect, what I and any others who are experienced, informed and with reservations post is never 'utter rubbish' (and I posted more than a single line over two replies). Again, I would suggest you read papers like Richards', or indeed anything essentially empirical, as it's all pretty compelling and convincing stuff. Or if you are going to continue to construct alternate realities regardless, can they at least be internally if not quite externally convincing, in the way that say the stuff that Nabokov learnt by was? ( http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=883931#883931 ).
Kids have to start somewhere, and stating the obvious is often a large part of what passes for so-called education the world over, but if you keep stating the obvious (e.g. 'What is a pen for?', though Jo's other example regarding the what's and why's of a fave colour is better, yet still hardly excitement itself) then you are largely confining yourself and your students to rather non-linguistic types of knowledge than actually speaking in any meaningful sense. You will sure need to change your methodology somewhat with older students, who are and need to be freer actors if they are to ever fulfil their possible communicative wants and needs in certainly the foreign language. But IMHO and E, even younger children have communicative wants and needs sometimes.
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I'm curious if you have ever taught in a public school? You get a textbook that has sentences like, "This is a pen". Simon can teach the material in the dry textbook as he wishes, but the material is there. I was giving him ideas of how he can teach full sentences. I don't see you answering his question.
I agree with you that communication needs to be more meaningful, however, if you have ever taught beginner English learners, you can't give too much 'free talk'. You need to scaffold the lesson and build up to 'free talk as they advance in their vocabulary. I presently have children in grade three who barely know how to make a sentence. They also don't know all of the sight words. I can't expect them to free talk if they just don't understand. So, something to keep in mind when teaching a class. Simon, has given a wide range of grades (K-5), but he hasn't really told us their English level. I fully support more meaningful communication, but I get the feeling that these children have a very low English level, especially if they are answering in one word answers.
Best of luck, Simon! |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jo. Back on page 1 I mentioned that I've taught as an AET in Japan, so I am sympathetic to the problems that language assistants face. Thankfully I have never had to use a textbook that taught 'This is a pen', and even the Japanese themselves are parodying that approach (you may have seen the PPAP song on YouTube). One way to gain more control over input is to cut the middle men out, as I did when I decided to teach exclusively elementary school level (where there are not yet any "qualified" Japanese teachers of English) rather than remain in junior high schools (which have English as a "subject proper", and thus JTEs).
And yes, I do teach or expect fuller utterances, when the questions or contexts warrant them (Wh-questions are as you say an obvious way to do this). The Wh-questions that Simon has presented do not warrant them however (answers are obviously too obvious LOL), and that is surely the problem right there, try as we might like to teach against this probably universal and perfectly natural one-word tendency. |
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