|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| simon44 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rote learning isn't usually the best method, because what are they really learning? Are they understanding what they are learning? Likely not at all.
|
You make an important point. Rote-learning is common in Asian schools. My role is to try to get the kids to think and then speak. Some of them are very good and will offer 'It is a big red pen', or 'but I have a blue pen' etc. That's when teaching really becomes satisfying, not just getting them to repeat ad nauseum. |
For some of the older elementary students, I'd suggest even expanding this language to, "What do we use a pen for?" Answer: to write with. "What is your favorite color?" Answer: My favorite color is blue. "Why do you like blue?" Answer: My room is blue. These are just examples. This can make learning more meaningful and interesting for the children. It does ask for more advanced understanding of the five W's (questions). |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| simon44 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So you're basically toeing a line in order to collect a paycheck. |
Utter rubbish! The textbook content, the pace at which the children learn and the overall teaching methodology of the school is excellent.
I asked a simple question about some practical methods for encouraging young students to try to speak in full phrases or sentences, and I obtained a very good answer ==> use a slinky.
I fully support the school in the manner in which they teach EFL, and I am given a very free hand to implement my own lessons in the manner that I see fit, with the proviso that the content that I teach (vocab, grammar etc) is in line with the content of the textbooks that are used to teach reading and writing.
There is zero pressure placed on me by my employers or teaching colleagues to teach in a particular manner.
Some people assume too much from a simple question.... |
Santi clearly expressed reservations, as have I. If you don't wish to develop more effective (more communicatively- and cognitively-compelling) methodology, fine, that's your "choice", but with respect, what I and any others who are experienced, informed and with reservations post is never 'utter rubbish' (and I posted more than a single line over two replies). Again, I would suggest you read papers like Richards', or indeed anything essentially empirical, as it's all pretty compelling and convincing stuff. Or if you are going to continue to construct alternate realities regardless, can they at least be internally if not quite externally convincing, in the way that say the stuff that Nabokov learnt by was? ( http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=883931#883931 ).
Kids have to start somewhere, and stating the obvious is often a large part of what passes for so-called education the world over, but if you keep stating the obvious (e.g. 'What is a pen for?', though Jo's other example regarding the what's and why's of a fave colour is better, yet still hardly excitement itself) then you are largely confining yourself and your students to rather non-linguistic types of knowledge than actually speaking in any meaningful sense. You will sure need to change your methodology somewhat with older students, who are and need to be freer actors if they are to ever fulfil their possible communicative wants and needs in certainly the foreign language. But IMHO and E, even younger children have communicative wants and needs sometimes.
That is, it is like you are reading the definitions from a dictionary ('...for writing with ink' http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/pen_1?q=pen ) than the examples (but the following is invented, off the top of my head: 'I got a nice new pen the other day, here, have a try' 'Ooh, very nice'. (A bit Mrs Brady Old Lady but WTH, at least it's communicating something)). And if you want to start saying something about writing (or rather, why people may have need to remark on the fact that they are writing something), then you'll maybe need to take a look at the entry for 'write' and/or start thinking about that word instead, and how (and why) it gets communicatively dovetailed into "whatever" talk. No word should ever be too incidental to mere target fixations "elsewhere". Language is a holistic system of checks and balances.
Returning to colours, I think the only or few times certainly adults remark on them is when trying to describe e.g. a colour or two that they fancy from a wall paint chart for decorating - 'What colour would you say that is?'. It is hardly a very useful or productive area for teaching regardless of age, so the most one has to do is find ways to actually remark on colour e.g. "Bad choices": (Man) 'What do you think of my new T Shirt!' (B) 'Why [did you choose] pink?!'; "Lost property": 'I've lost my suitcase/pen/t-shirt'. 'What colour is it?' '...'. But hey, not trying to ring any bells or get the creative juices flowing here, nuh uh.
TL:DR answer to the thread title is 'You shouldn't, not when the questions are about exceedingly obvious things that absolutely don't deserve any more than bare minimum answers. Ellipsis etc is a reality, even in English. To expect otherwise is to produce unnatural behaviour and consequently an exercise in inefficiency and frustration. But if you're so worried that the students aren't producing enough sentences (versus "mere" utterances), take the supposed slack up elsewhere in the syllabus why don't you'. Your loyalty should ultimately be to the language, not to employers, who often do not know better, at least not when it comes to English.
FWIW here is an example of a doubly-redundant long answer (as even the form of the verb used didn't ultimately matter!). Read it and weep at the pointless pits and traps that some teachers seem wont to lay for their long-suffering students.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=97205
Last edited by fluffytwo on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:41 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
WARNING
If you come here to participate in civil discussion while respecting other posting members, you are most welcome and we appreciate your participation.
On the other hand, if your reason for being here is to insult and otherwise take shots at other members, you will find your continued tenure here promptly and directly affected by the degree to which you engage in such unacceptable behavior.
Members observing unacceptable postings of the type noted above are advised not to respond on the public board. Instead, promptly bring the matter to the attention of the Mod Team by Report Post or PM.
We will sort it all out quickly and most efficiently to the benefit of all concerned.
Really, we will. I kid you not.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fluffytwo wrote: |
| simon44 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So you're basically toeing a line in order to collect a paycheck. |
Utter rubbish! The textbook content, the pace at which the children learn and the overall teaching methodology of the school is excellent.
I asked a simple question about some practical methods for encouraging young students to try to speak in full phrases or sentences, and I obtained a very good answer ==> use a slinky.
I fully support the school in the manner in which they teach EFL, and I am given a very free hand to implement my own lessons in the manner that I see fit, with the proviso that the content that I teach (vocab, grammar etc) is in line with the content of the textbooks that are used to teach reading and writing.
There is zero pressure placed on me by my employers or teaching colleagues to teach in a particular manner.
Some people assume too much from a simple question.... |
Santi clearly expressed reservations, as have I. If you don't wish to develop more effective (more communicatively- and cognitively-compelling) methodology, fine, that's your "choice", but with respect, what I and any others who are experienced, informed and with reservations post is never 'utter rubbish' (and I posted more than a single line over two replies). Again, I would suggest you read papers like Richards', or indeed anything essentially empirical, as it's all pretty compelling and convincing stuff. Or if you are going to continue to construct alternate realities regardless, can they at least be internally if not quite externally convincing, in the way that say the stuff that Nabokov learnt by was? ( http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=883931#883931 ).
Kids have to start somewhere, and stating the obvious is often a large part of what passes for so-called education the world over, but if you keep stating the obvious (e.g. 'What is a pen for?', though Jo's other example regarding the what's and why's of a fave colour is better, yet still hardly excitement itself) then you are largely confining yourself and your students to rather non-linguistic types of knowledge than actually speaking in any meaningful sense. You will sure need to change your methodology somewhat with older students, who are and need to be freer actors if they are to ever fulfil their possible communicative wants and needs in certainly the foreign language. But IMHO and E, even younger children have communicative wants and needs sometimes.
|
I'm curious if you have ever taught in a public school? You get a textbook that has sentences like, "This is a pen". Simon can teach the material in the dry textbook as he wishes, but the material is there. I was giving him ideas of how he can teach full sentences. I don't see you answering his question.
I agree with you that communication needs to be more meaningful, however, if you have ever taught beginner English learners, you can't give too much 'free talk'. You need to scaffold the lesson and build up to 'free talk as they advance in their vocabulary. I presently have children in grade three who barely know how to make a sentence. They also don't know all of the sight words. I can't expect them to free talk if they just don't understand. So, something to keep in mind when teaching a class. Simon, has given a wide range of grades (K-5), but he hasn't really told us their English level. I fully support more meaningful communication, but I get the feeling that these children have a very low English level, especially if they are answering in one word answers.
Best of luck, Simon! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Jo. Back on page 1 I mentioned that I've taught as an AET in Japan, so I am sympathetic to the problems that language assistants face. Thankfully I have never had to use a textbook that taught 'This is a pen', and even the Japanese themselves are parodying that approach (you may have seen the PPAP song on YouTube). One way to gain more control over input is to cut the middle men out, as I did when I decided to teach exclusively elementary school level (where there are not yet any "qualified" Japanese teachers of English) rather than remain in junior high schools (which have English as a "subject proper", and thus JTEs).
And yes, I do teach or expect fuller utterances, when the questions or contexts warrant them (Wh-questions are as you say an obvious way to do this). The Wh-questions that Simon has presented do not warrant them however (answers are obviously too obvious LOL), and that is surely the problem right there, try as we might like to teach against this probably universal and perfectly natural one-word tendency. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Fair enough, fluffytwo. In regards to speaking in full sentences, ime children need to learn sentence structure first. The Asian children that I've taught in Korea and now in China, always leave out articles (the, a, an). Even when they are speaking they don't understand how a sentence is constructed. I teach EAL, so I focus on speaking, listening, reading and writing. I teach grade two children about nouns, verbs, adjectives, but first and foremost about capitals and periods.
If children can understand what a sentence is and how it is constructed, then they can practice speaking in full sentences. I also give lots of examples and get their input. This is how I approach it in the lower grades. I don't expect them to just regurgitate insignificant sentences like, "This is a pen" I also at the same time teach them vocabulary (sight words first) by using games. I also make sure my students understand the meaning of word. If they don't understand what they are learning, then it is useless to learn in the first place ime.
How has your experience been in Japan? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
simon44
Joined: 15 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Simon, has given a wide range of grades (K-5), but he hasn't really told us their English level.
|
To give some more background information, I have been teaching EFL for more than 10 years in south-east Asia. Although I have taught adult and teen learners, most of my teaching has been at pre-school, KG and lower primary. My students' English language abilities have varied from non-existent (as one might well expect for pre-school kids and monastic school students who live in a country where English is a foreign language), up to good language knowledge for their age group (many of the children who attend my international school).
Fluffytwo comments that 'answers are obviously too obvious LOL'. An answer may be obvious, but the question that elicited that answer still needs to be listened to and understood, and the correct grammatical reply and good pronunciation given. It might be obvious to us as adults, but the child may be struggling to understand the question and to think of the correct word for 'red'.
'What colour is this pen?'. 'It is a red pen' is an entirely practical topic for a classroom setting with young learners. The topic can be expanded to cover all manner of classroom objects, shapes and locations. It encourages confidence in the children to talk about common objects in their environment, (which is probably why every EFL textbook for young learners includes these types of topics).
As to how one encourages children to expand on their single-word answers, I think the use of a slinky is a great idea. I searched high and low in Bangkok yesterday, but could not find a slinky to purchase.
An alternative might be a brightly-coloured, large rubber band, especially one that the children are able to stretch themselves. The single-word reply is given for an unstretched rubber band. The child can stretch the band and reply 'It is red'. Or they can use their strength to stretch the band as much as they can and say 'It is a big, red pen' etc. So it becomes a game.
One aspect of my work is to instill confidence in my students, so that they are not shy to speak aloud in class. One game that I play with slightly older students is to hand them an object (previously unseen, such as a ruler), and then get them to speak for as long as they can about that object, without making any mistakes in their grammar or pronunciation.
Of course, their conversation will wander off into talking about things that are not relevant to a ruler. But that's fine - the kids are getting confident to speak in full phrases and sentences. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JoThomas
Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 148
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| simon44 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Simon, has given a wide range of grades (K-5), but he hasn't really told us their English level.
|
To give some more background information, I have been teaching EFL for more than 10 years in south-east Asia. Although I have taught adult and teen learners, most of my teaching has been at pre-school, KG and lower primary. My students' English language abilities have varied from non-existent (as one might well expect for pre-school kids and monastic school students who live in a country where English is a foreign language), up to good language knowledge for their age group (many of the children who attend my international school).
Fluffytwo comments that 'answers are obviously too obvious LOL'. An answer may be obvious, but the question that elicited that answer still needs to be listened to and understood, and the correct grammatical reply and good pronunciation given. It might be obvious to us as adults, but the child may be struggling to understand the question and to think of the correct word for 'red'.
'What colour is this pen?'. 'It is a red pen' is an entirely practical topic for a classroom setting with young learners. The topic can be expanded to cover all manner of classroom objects, shapes and locations. It encourages confidence in the children to talk about common objects in their environment, (which is probably why every EFL textbook for young learners includes these types of topics).
As to how one encourages children to expand on their single-word answers, I think the use of a slinky is a great idea. I searched high and low in Bangkok yesterday, but could not find a slinky to purchase.
An alternative might be a brightly-coloured, large rubber band, especially one that the children are able to stretch themselves. The single-word reply is given for an unstretched rubber band. The child can stretch the band and reply 'It is red'. Or they can use their strength to stretch the band as much as they can and say 'It is a big, red pen' etc. So it becomes a game.
One aspect of my work is to instill confidence in my students, so that they are not shy to speak aloud in class. One game that I play with slightly older students is to hand them an object (previously unseen, such as a ruler), and then get them to speak for as long as they can about that object, without making any mistakes in their grammar or pronunciation.
Of course, their conversation will wander off into talking about things that are not relevant to a ruler. But that's fine - the kids are getting confident to speak in full phrases and sentences. |
That's great! I think a slinky is an okay idea, but if they don't know how to talk in full sentences, then the slinky may not help. You know what I mean? Maybe they talk in one word sentences because they aren't sure what to say? I don't know for sure, but maybe you can test it out. Practice, practice, practice..
I agree that building students' confidence is really important. I know when I taught in the suburbs of Korea, the children were deathly shy of speaking English. Two things really helped me.. the games that I mentioned that I played a lot. I had them sitting in groups of six, so they could easily pair up with a partner for some games. I also installed Karafun Karaoke player (check online) on my laptop and had a huge screen (and a great sound system). At the end of the class, I'd have my students sing along with English songs and at times Korean songs (with English subtitles) which helped motivate them. The singing really got them out of their shell. Reading to children and with children is another way for them to hear proper sentence structure and learn new vocabulary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Simon44 wrote: |
| Fluffytwo comments that 'answers are obviously too obvious LOL'. An answer may be obvious, but the question that elicited that answer still needs to be listened to and understood, and the correct grammatical reply and good pronunciation given. It might be obvious to us as adults, but the child may be struggling to understand the question and to think of the correct word for 'red'. |
Then why the insistence on full-sentence answers? I'm not the one making your students' lives unnecessarily difficult, and I am literally not in the position to teach any words to them - that is clearly your or the local teachers' job. Personally and as I've already said I'd be happy with merely appropriate answers (i.e. just the word 'red'), in fact there is absolutely nothing ungrammatical or otherwise about the one-word answers in the contexts given.
| Quote: |
| 'What colour is this pen?'. 'It is a red pen' is an entirely practical topic for a classroom setting with young learners. The topic can be expanded to cover all manner of classroom objects, shapes and locations. It encourages confidence in the children to talk about common objects in their environment, (which is probably why every EFL textbook for young learners includes these types of topics). |
It is however unnatural English, and for a variety of reasons that nobody here should need to point out (though I will at least say that the two utterances would appear to be fulfilling slightly different functions and meanings, that are not necessarily connected, and that colour terms can surely be taught as if not more easily in a quite decontextualized way prior to more realistic use e.g. Jo's establishing or asking about fave colours). May I ask if that exchange is of your or the local teachers' invention? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
simon44
Joined: 15 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Maybe they talk in one word sentences because they aren't sure what to say?
|
Of course the language ability varies across the same class of students - some are 100% sure what to say and some are not and some are a little shy.
By asking each individual child and encouraging them to try to construct a sentence, the more able students can (and do) add in further words, adjectives etc in their sentence without my input. The less able students can learn and practice from their peers in the class, and can also overcome their initial shyness.
Everyone makes progress, some are challenged more than others, and the Learning Objectives of the curriculum are always achieved in a supportive, classroom environment.
Fluffytwo, I note that all your comments have not yet been on-topic for this thread, which was to ask for ideas to get young learners to speak full sentences, rather than just single words.
Clearly, we have different views about how to teach YLs. I am employed to implement the curriculum and LOs of my school, and that curriculum is based on the English NC, (which is well-established and proven).
I have previously worked as the Headmaster and Director of an international school, and as Assistant Principal of another school. Even in those lofty roles, I did not have the authority to challenge or change the curriculum that was used by the school, and in any case, I fully agreed with the curriculum and LOs.
If you want to discuss whether YLs should just be taught to utter single word replies, then please open a new and separate thread on that topic.
But in all honesty, (and remaining polite), I find your attitude rather 'weird' and confrontational ==> hardly the type of attitude that would be welcomed in a teacher at any of the schools where I have worked.
I'll leave it at that for this thread. I've got some very good suggestions already and I'll be implementing these ideas in my classes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As far as I've understood fluffy over the years (and I freely admit that his prose style puts me off so I don't read his posts in detail) he's firmly against any type of 'non-natural' language regardless of its possible pedagogical value.
The usefulness of having little kids repeating simple sentences seems pretty clear to me, whether full sentences in the specific context are entirely natural or not. In fact, I think that quite a lot of L1 acquisition happens in a similar way; it doesn't all mimic natural speech, necessarily.
If fluffy opens a new thread, I'll repeat this.
Meanwhile, for what it's worth, I think simon's explained clearly why he's using the full-sentence approach and I've followed with some interest the contributions of JoThomas. Thanks for the (partly) useful discussion; some of its elements extrapolate to a course I'm currently writing for much older students:-) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You still haven't answered my question about quite who is supplying the examples that you've given, Simon, but I'm assuming you'll stick with them or similar regardless (even if pedagogically the world could be your oyster), and no matter what I or anyone else says (and again, I haven't been the only one expressing reservations. I'd still hazard that a fair number of problems would cease to be problems were a solid, approach-level rationale brought to bear to help linguistically sort the wheat from the chaff, "e.g." the Communicative Approach). Anyway, good luck with improving your chosen methodology.
Last edited by fluffytwo on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
simon44
Joined: 15 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Your problems are thus yours and yours alone to solve.
|
On the contrary, I have had very useful discussion and suggestions from the 2 other thread contributors, who have made the effort to stay on topic.
Thank-you for your contributions, which really deserve a thread all of their own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| One last tidbit: Any proponents of things like full-sentence answers were always in the definite minority over on the Teacher Discussion Applied Linguistics forum here on Dave's. Make of that what you will! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
