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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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 Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
The website indicates it may be a college for female students. So that implies female teaching staff. I would want to know about Housing. And medical cover. On a business visa you have no protection under the Labour Code.
What about ticketing ? Leave ? These are the kind of questions to resolve at interview or at the very least before you head off to Dammam. |
They said they provided the ticket to go there and ticket to return to home country at the end of the contract. A second contract for the second year was possible if both sides agreed, but the funny thing with that is, if you sign on for a second year they don't provide a ticket home between contracts, only at the end of the first or second contract so if people wanted to go home during the summer leave (around 40 days) they would have to pay the fare home and back again. Personally, I've never heard of this arrangement before.
Yes it's a female college which they have been running for the past year only. Or at least have the contract to provide staff. They said they were still in the process of establishing the curriculum and asked if I would have a problem with that. I said no it wasn't a problem. It did sound as though it could be a bit disorganized though.
I know there can be problems with business visas but a friend worked in Saudi for a number of years without any problems so it didn't sound risky to me. |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Just an update about this Alasala company.
After sending 3 emails asking the cost of medical checks before entering the country & not receiving any reply, I contacted the agency guy to ask him who said he would contact the company.
The next day I received a reply from the person in Saudi who I'd been emailing to say the checks would take place in the country. Again I asked who would pay for them but didn''t receive a reply until about 3 days later which didn't answer the question ! A few more emails from me followed until finally I got the answer that the company didn't pay for them.
I then asked if I had to arrange for the checks myself or if they would. The answer to that was "in about three weeks time" which tells me absolutely nothing !  At that point I gave up because it was obvious I was not going to get the information needed and if they wanted me to work for them they would have to contact me with all the necessary information. As I said before, they have already sent me the 'Final Contract' which I signed & returned to them.
Now this is either a case of a scam or incredible disorganization. I know they can be very disorganized in Saudi but this seems over the top even for their standards. I think this is the reason why their name sounded familiar to me from last year. I don't remember accepting a contract from them at that time & they contacted me this year. It's possible that I did accept a contract from them and the same happened last year, but I was very busy with various things at that time as well as applying for various jobs so I just don't remember, only that the name is very familiar.
On the other hand, if it's a scam and if I did accept a contract from them last year maybe I asked the same questions about medical costs, hence the job not materializing. It could be that they themselves don't remember me asking the questions but when I asked them this year it could have alerted them to the fact that I'm aware of possible scams and this could account for the total silence since the numerous emails. I know it all sounds very complicated but it's them who are making it this way.
I tend to think it's a scam because this level of disorganization just isn't plausible even for Saudi standards. So I just wanted to give an update in case anyone else is considering working for this company. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Arenta wrote: |
| Yes it's a female college which they have been running for the past year only. Or at least have the contract to provide staff. They said they were still in the process of establishing the curriculum and asked if I would have a problem with that. I said no it wasn't a problem. It did sound as though it could be a bit disorganized though. |
If this college is still rather new, think twice about working there. Startups and business changes usually entail disorganization, working extra hours (possibly with no pay), delays in pay, extra duties, disgruntled coworkers (due to the lack of organization)... lots of ambiguity and confusion.
| and wrote: |
| I know there can be problems with business visas but a friend worked in Saudi for a number of years without any problems so it didn't sound risky to me. |
Your friend's sponsor may have been on the level. The problems with this visa type stem from sponsors who are sketchy and put their interests above those they hire. Or they're disorganized and careless in how they run their business, especially when it comes to timely pay. Sometimes, it's both. If you decide to sign on with this sponsor, keep that in mind and always have an emergency fund for a quick exit in case things go sour.
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's a scam....that requires some motive, some planning, some organization. That's not what you're faced with here. What you're faced with here is total disarray, a serious case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing, dysfunction on stilts.
If after a year they still haven't been able to get beyond their vision and mission focus, if they're still toying around with the "curriculum" and so on, do you really want to be involved with all that? I predict it will be one minor crisis for you after another which YOU will have to take care of without any assistance and which mostly you won't be able to solve. Likely, there be delays in salary payments, the availability of chalk, paper and pencil unreliable and so on.
The signs are all there.....it's a dead–in– the– water project. Don't play the martyr....I can't tell you the many times I've seen westerners work their tails off only to get a 1.7% raise at the end of it all.......(After all the work I did......) And off they go in a huff. Everybody will applaud the fine work and dedication you portray in your work, and then when push comes to shove, they'll quickly turn their backs on you and won't even acknowledge who you are. (They're actually already doing that....how many times have they already not returned your emails or not addressed your questions?)
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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If this college is still rather new, think twice about working there. Startups and business changes usually entail disorganization, working extra hours (possibly with no pay), delays in pay, extra duties, disgruntled coworkers (due to the lack of organization)... lots of ambiguity and confusion.
It sounds like it could very well be that way.
| and wrote: |
| I know there can be problems with business visas but a friend worked in Saudi for a number of years without any problems so it didn't sound risky to me. |
Your friend's sponsor may have been on the level. The problems with this visa type stem from sponsors who are sketchy and put their interests above those they hire. Or they're disorganized and careless in how they run their business, especially when it comes to timely pay. Sometimes, it's both. If you decide to sign on with this sponsor, keep that in mind and always have an emergency fund for a quick exit in case things go sour.
.[/quote]
I don't think I will after all this delay and not getting clear answers. It just doesn't seem worth the hassle. |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| hash wrote: |
I don't think it's a scam....that requires some motive, some planning, some organization. That's not what you're faced with here. What you're faced with here is total disarray, a serious case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing, dysfunction on stilts.
If after a year they still haven't been able to get beyond their vision and mission focus, if they're still toying around with the "curriculum" and so on, do you really want to be involved with all that? I predict it will be one minor crisis for you after another which YOU will have to take care of without any assistance and which mostly you won't be able to solve. Likely, there be delays in salary payments, the availability of chalk, paper and pencil unreliable and so on.
The signs are all there.....it's a dead–in– the– water project. Don't play the martyr....I can't tell you the many times I've seen westerners work their tails off only to get a 1.7% raise at the end of it all.......(After all the work I did......) And off they go in a huff. Everybody will applaud the fine work and dedication you portray in your work, and then when push comes to shove, they'll quickly turn their backs on you and won't even acknowledge who you are. (They're actually already doing that....how many times have they already not returned your emails or not addressed your questions?)
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As I see it the motive could be the well known one of getting people to pay upfront medical fees for something that doesn't even exist. This is what a company called Al Khallej, not the college, appear to be doing, along with others. I turned down a job offer from this company last year because they insisted I use a particular place for the medical and wanted upfront fees. A friend of mine got caught out this way some years ago by a company in the UAE. She lost thousands of dollars. Besides, I've never heard of medical tests being done AFTER you enter the country. Maybe this is done with business visas but I just don't know if this is the case or not. Maybe if someone does know they could answer this question?
I understand the points you make about disorganized companies and I agree the effects are numerous and bad. Either way, whether it's a scam or not, it just doesn't seem worth the hassles that will inevitably follow. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Arenta wrote: |
| Besides, I've never heard of medical tests being done AFTER you enter the country. Maybe this is done with business visas but I just don't know if this is the case or not. Maybe if someone does know they could answer this question? |
I never worked in Saudi Arabia, but did in Kuwait, Oman, and the UAE. All medical tests were done in the individual countries after I arrived, and the university employers paid all costs.
I never had any medical exams before arriving in any of these countries. All provided full legitimate work/residence visas.
KSA has always been the one who required a health check before departure, but the applicant paid all fees to their national health system... not sending off money to someone unknown.
VS |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
KSA has always been the one who required a health check before departure, but the applicant paid all fees to their national health system... not sending off money to someone unknown.
VS |
KSA seems to be the exception for some reason. The last time I worked, 2015/16, basic checks had to be done before the visa was issued, then a further check while in the country shortly after arriving. All checks were paid for by the employer and it was employment under a full work visa. I don't think it's changed in the last year. Maybe there is a difference regarding the medical checks if it's done with a business visa.
I worked in Qatar where all checks were done in the country, also paid for by the employer. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Arenta wrote: |
| The last time I worked, 2015/16, basic checks had to be done before the visa was issued, then a further check while in the country shortly after arriving. All checks were paid for by the employer and it was employment under a full work visa. I don't think it's changed in the last year. Maybe there is a difference regarding the medical checks if it's done with a business visa. |
A business visa does not require a med exam and lab tests. Biz visas are a type of visit visa; the visa holder is a short-term visitor and not a bona fide expat employee applying for legal residency in order to work for a Saudi company/entity.
Don't expect Saudi for-profit businesses to pay for any and everything, especially given the country's lukewarm economy and the continuing decline in salaries. Their interest is in making as much money as possible for the company rather than investing in human resources (AKA expat workers). |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
A business visa does not require a med exam and lab tests. Biz visas are a type of visit visa; the visa holder is a short-term visitor and not a bona fide expat employee applying for legal residency in order to work for a Saudi company/entity.
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That makes sense then that the company said the checks would be done in country (which they wouldn't pay for).
So working on a business visa is technically illegal then. I know that there's no employment protection on such a visa for that reason, and why employers use them to get around the waiting times for an Iqama, but I wonder why the government don't crack down on this technical illegality - not that I'm saying they should - only that it's surprising they don't.
Do you or anyone else know if there are legal consequences for the employee if found working on a business visa? |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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For whatever reason, the government has not enforced the law as relates to teachers. We have had no reports of any teachers being deported because of working "illegally" on these visas. The government has turned a blind eye. Deportations have only affected low level workers... often called TCNs.
That said, it could change whenever the government wishes...
VS |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Arenta wrote: |
So working on a business visa is technically illegal then. I know that there's no employment protection on such a visa for that reason, and why employers use them to get around the waiting times for an Iqama, but I wonder why the government don't crack down on this technical illegality - not that I'm saying they should - only that it's surprising they don't.
Do you or anyone else know if there are legal consequences for the employee if found working on a business visa? |
It's hard to say if anyone gets deported in that sense, although there was a big mess with friends of mine on biz visas 5 years ago. (See Avoid Saudi British Centre at all costs.) Another friend worked on a biz visa for ICEAT at the time and couldn't get back into KSA after vacationing in the UAE.
BTW, there's no "employer" or "employee" status with a biz or work visit visa. The holder is a "sponsored" worker and the Saudi entity is the "sponsor."
It seems you're trying to justify taking a job with this visa type because it's cheap and can be obtained in your current country of residence. No one can predict what, if any, problems you might encounter with your Saudi sponsor. It's a risk you alone need to consider -- if it's worth the amount of money you'd save by not going on a work/employment visa.
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
BTW, there's no "employer" or "employee" status with a biz or work visit visa. The holder is a "sponsored" worker and the Saudi entity is the "sponsor." |
Yes I know. Force of habit to call it by the normal name.
| nomad soul wrote: |
It seems you're trying to justify taking a job with this visa type because it's cheap and can be obtained in your current country of residence. No one can predict what, if any, problems you might encounter with your Saudi sponsor. It's a risk you alone need to consider -- if it's worth the amount of money you'd save by not going on a work/employment visa.
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I'm not trying to justify it only pointing out how inconvenient and expensive it is for people who don't live in their native country. Cost of return flight, hotel fees + medical fees all amounting to hundreds is a lot to fork out without getting it back. It's around a month's pay, maybe even more depending on the offered pay. For many people it's a deal breaker. |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Arenta wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
BTW, there's no "employer" or "employee" status with a biz or work visit visa. The holder is a "sponsored" worker and the Saudi entity is the "sponsor." |
Yes I know. Force of habit to call it by the normal name.
| nomad soul wrote: |
It seems you're trying to justify taking a job with this visa type because it's cheap and can be obtained in your current country of residence. No one can predict what, if any, problems you might encounter with your Saudi sponsor. It's a risk you alone need to consider -- if it's worth the amount of money you'd save by not going on a work/employment visa.
. |
I'm not trying to justify it only pointing out how inconvenient and expensive it is for people who don't live in their native country. Cost of return flight (at the most expensive time of year), hotel fees + medical fees all amounting to hundreds is a lot to fork out without getting it back. It's around a month's pay, maybe even more depending on the offered pay. For many people it's a deal breaker. |
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Arenta
Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
For whatever reason, the government has not enforced the law as relates to teachers. We have had no reports of any teachers being deported because of working "illegally" on these visas. The government has turned a blind eye. Deportations have only affected low level workers... often called TCNs.
That said, it could change whenever the government wishes...
VS |
Hhmn... yes. |
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