Job Discussion Forums

[ebparsa]

[Marcos Cisneros]

Dear EBParsa,

I just read that you have been dealing with them since April. That is a long window.

That being said, at what point did you submit all of your completed documents to them? That is the critical mass issue.

And frankly, if School B has adapted a passive attitude as you write, that in itself is not very helpful. If School A has indeed become not forthcoming, while things may be dicey, then can still be overcome. You need to find a school that truly wants you, that is not passive aggressive, that is willing to sit down with the FEB to work these things out. You may have been entered into the computer, but if no work permit and no visa have issued, five months later, a school worth its mettle can demonstrate that to the FEB. It happened to many that I know.

All things be said, even under the new more complicated rules, your FEB documentation and the single letter that you will need for the Z visa should have issued within less than 45 days FROM date of completion of all documents.

You are dealing with a junior FAO at one school and a timid FAO at the other. The September hiring crunch is upon us and there are myriad jobs available, even good ones. This is still China, after all, and guanxi still counts a great deal. A competent FAO could make this happen. And they do exist.

I would be very, very hesitant about School A at this point. Since they know you are looking around, they are just going to play you out and not be helpful. And somehow, somehow, I think that I might know the other school in Guangdong to which you are referring ... and it is most likely on the outskirts of Guangzhou .... with a large foreign presence ... and in the end, if it indeed is this school, they won't do anything in the end. Their FAO's change every three months.

Just reach out and you will find something better than A and B.

[Non Sequitur]

'It seems too complicated a process...'
And you're not even in China yet

[ebparsa]

"at being said, at what point did you submit all of your completed documents to them? That is the critical mass issue."

Yes, I have been dealing with them for a long time but in all fairness I only submitted all my documents to them exactly one month ago today.
I do know for a fact that they dragged their feet and wasted at least a week on translating my degrees.

"And frankly, if School B has adapted a passive attitude as you write, that in itself is not very helpful."
Let me tell you what happened yesterday. The recruiter with school B suggested that I prepare a letter giving school B power of attorney to have my application revoked with the local FEB in order to be able to submit a new application, which I did. When we went to school B's admin. She was kind enough to warn me in advance of the steps needed to make it happen (= another sign of professionalism in my eyes):

- you need to give school A a deadline to get you your wp and express your explicit desire to cancel the contract, if not met.
- if they don't respond or fail to meet that deadline then submit all your communications with school A to us to forward it to our local FEB.
- we must warn you that FEB will contact school A to find out the truth and may launch an official investigation.
- we must warn you that in the past FEB has found that the teachers were at fault has upheld the first contract instructing the teacher to stay with school A.
- we will adopt a passive role in this matter <== they are basically saying that they won't adopt an adversarial position against school A but will help me with the paperwork through their local FEB.

"If School A has indeed become not forthcoming, while things may be dicey, then can still be overcome."

Even though, I am more interested in school B, I have to be fair: School A is simply asking for more time and reassuring me that classes won't really start till the end of September and I shouldn't lose any sleep over it. Everything looks good on their end and that it is only a matter of time before my wp comes in.

"You may have been entered into the computer, but if no work permit and no visa have issued, five months later"
I appreciate your empathy but to be fair, I only submitted the last piece of documentation exactly a month ago, which was my background check. Before that they refused to submit other documents. They said that FEB wouldn't look at my application if all required docs haven't been uploaded.
Now you tell me if they have had ample time and whether I should give school A a deadline to come up with a wp or release me.

"You are dealing with a junior FAO at one school and a timid FAO at the other."
Which one is timid and which one is junior, in your view?

"I would be very, very hesitant about School A at this point. Since they know you are looking around, they are just going to play you out and not be helpful."
Now I am really confused. Haha
Isn't that a good thing though? I believe Sequitur mentioned that too that when School A sees that your losing your patience with them and are looking elsewhere. They might get their act together and apply more pressure on the their FEB.

"if it indeed is this school, they won't do anything in the end. Their FAO's change every three months."

Forgive my ignorance, I know what FAO stands for but I don't see their role. Is FAO the admins in your school that deals with foreign teachers?
Are you insinuating that they have no influence on the local officials due to high turnover in that office?

"Just reach out and you will find something better than A and B"
I don't have time, man. We are just a week away from September 1st.

This morning, the recruiter was getting desperate. So, guess what he suggested? He suggested that I come in with a tourist visa, which I rejected immediately. He is assuming that school A will finally give up and revoke my application as they need to submit a new application for a new teacher they will find after me. Once that is done, school B could submit my application.
To me, there are too many ifs. It is just getting too complicated and the chances of it going sideways are growing exponentially.

[ebparsa]

[Marcos Cisneros]

EbParsa,

Please forgive me but you are making this thing way, way, way too complicated. Have you ever been to China before? I think not.

Re the Power of Attorney thing, that strikes me as very American. China does not work like that at all, and not at this level at all and I am speaking from almost 20 years experience.

Your FAO at School B is making things way too complicated. In China, if the FAO knows what he or she is doing, it is a simple trip to the FEB, not even a telephone call beforehand, and a nice little chat, and perhaps a gratuity or two. If the FAO at School B does not know this, then he or she is just as junior as the first one at School A. Investigations, application withdrawals, etc., etc. It does not work that way at this level with the FEB. And who is telling you all of this ... the recruiter, the FAO, etc., etc.

If indeed it has only been one month since you submitted your documents, than that is a very reasonable delay, given the summer holidays in China.

The story has become a little bit muddy and I would appreciate some clarity. Are you dealing with a school or with a recruiter or with both and with how many?

And if you only submitted all of your documents one month ago to School A, at what point did you reach out to School B? If you reached out to School B during this one month, or even before, that is where the FEB is going to question things very seriously.

I smell recruiter in all of this and a little bit of underhand. Why start off in China with this kind of imbroglio? And if you knew how the Chinese react to ultimatums, and whomever is telling you to give ultimatums to School A, that is hardly a good idea.

You need to defuse this mess, somehow, give face back to School A, and if it becomes obvious that they are unable to cause a work permit to issue, then, and only then should you go forward with School B. And end things with School A as graciously as you can. But one month is hardly panic times, not these days, in China.

Perhaps you are simply looking at more money and a way out.

[Non Sequitur]

In my exp the 'FAO' hire foreign teachers but also recruit foreign students and host visits of foreign academics.
Reading between the lines I think B has been told to butt out. The national database is there for a purpose.
As for the tourist visa suggestion, treat it as you have done.
Take a little gift for your 'School A' FAO contact. You want to smooth over any tensions that have built up. She can make your tenure pleasant or otherwise. I got my best private gigs from an FAO lady who started out as the resident 'dragon'.
Best

[OhBudPowellWhereArtThou]

"... in all fairness I only submitted all my documents to them exactly one month ago today..."

Give them two more weeks. By then everyone will be back at work (though the FAO is supposed to be open all year long except for holidays).

Power of attorney? That's just nutty.

NS gives sage advice. Heed it well.

[ebparsa]

[ebparsa]

[ebparsa]

"Please forgive me but you are making this thing way, way, way too complicated. Have you ever been to China before? I think not."

Not China but I have been around. Trust me. China cannot be half as chaotic as Thailand is. I am not the one making things complicated. They are with their suggestions and I am slowly backing off as things are getting too cumbersome.

"Re the Power of Attorney thing, that strikes me as very American."
This is the term I am using. They called it an "authorization" to take it to the local FEB. I went along with it thinking it is that easy but school B's admin burst that bubble short after.

"Your FAO at School B is making things way too complicated.
In China, if the FAO knows what he or she is doing, it is a simple trip to the FEB"

If that is the case then School B has lost interest in me by deliberately making it look like there is a procedure to follow, which is fine.

"If indeed it has only been one month since you submitted your documents, than that is a very reasonable delay, given the summer holidays in China."

Noted duly.

"Are you dealing with a school or with a recruiter or with both and with how many?"
School A --> school itself
School B --> recruiter and the school admin

"And if you only submitted all of your documents one month ago to School A, at what point did you reach out to School B? If you reached out to School B during this one month, or even before, that is where the FEB is going to question things very seriously."

Good question: I started negotiating with school B last week while waiting for 3 days to get an update from school A. Push comes to shove, my argument is: School A's lack of communication drove me to look elsewhere.


"I smell recruiter in all of this and a little bit of underhand. Why start off in China with this kind of imbroglio?"

That's why I am pulling back now. I don't need all of this specially on my first job in China.

"And if you knew how the Chinese react to ultimatums, and whomever is telling you to give ultimatums to School A, that is hardly a good idea."

I have an idea. In Thailand, you always keep smiling and never ever raise your voice because you might as well pull out a gun and shoot yourself in the foot.

"You need to defuse this mess, somehow, give face back to School A, and if it becomes obvious that they are unable to cause a work permit to issue, then, and only then should you go forward with School B. And end things with School A as graciously as you can. But one month is hardly panic times, not these days, in China."

I was thinking in the same line too. I emailed them back today. Telling them that I really want to work for them and I will wait longer till the end of this month and if, by then, they can't get me a wp, I am afraid I will have to move on.

"Perhaps you are simply looking at more money and a way out"
Yes, but I am not willing to take unnecessarily risks. I am willing to bite the bullet and work in an underdeveloped province and find something better when I know the country better.

[Non Sequitur]

All you want at this stage is a Z in your pp.
Residence/work permit process will start after you arrive and following the medical.
Take your x-ray films with you as they will likely be accepted and avoid a further exposure.
Ultimatums are NOT a good approach.

[ebparsa]

[Non Sequitur]

Not entirely on topic but any functionary who has limited opportunities for graft will still be malleable with a little recognition.
Former student works for a Western Embassy. Customs lady made all sorts of problems getting clearance for a new Embassy car.
Now at every cultural and art function hosted by Embassy, the Customs lady gets personal invitation from the relevant Consul-General.
My student says Customs lady now treats her as a daughter. That's Chinese to Chinese. Double in spades for Chinese/Foreigner contacts.

[Marcos Cisneros]

Dear Abe Parsa,
Dear Fellow ESL Cafe Members,

I have been giving Abe's matter a certain amount of thought and have been trying to understand.

I went back on this Forum, which is very helpful, and read some of Abe Parsa's previous posts on the forum and also was fortunate to be able to read some posts of his on Twitter.

I want to offer several hypotheses on why I think that Abe might have hit a brick wall. Again, they are hypotheses offered in a spirit of trying to understand the issue and how best to overcome. I welcome input and comment from the rest of you.

1. The Chinese Image of a Foreign Teacher

Abe is currently or was in Thailand. It is my humble opinion that of all of the Asian countries, Thailand is probably the least racist. I am not saying that it is not racist at all, just that it is less racist than China or Japan.

Let's face some facts. The Chinese have a Leave It To Beaver or Father's Knows Best image of the foreign teachers that they want, something like blond, blue eyed, female, charming, and then male, etc., etc. It is not how it plays out but it is in their mindset.

Abe has mentioned that he carries a Canadian passport. I cannot discern if he is Canadian born or foreign born but even that becomes moot at a certain point. On another two forums, it became clear that Abe might be either Iranian born or a Canadian of Iranian heritage. It is at that point that the Chinese world view of an ESL teacher kicks in, and not in a positive manner.

To wit...I have a very good Canadian friend born in Toronto. He graduated valedictorian at the University of Toronto six years back. Handsome, sporting, athletic. His parents were from Islamabad and his first name and surname reflect proudly their heritage. For whatever reason, and perhaps as a gap year between his first level university degree and his graduates studies, Terry decided to come to China. He was refused at practically ever university to which he applied until a Chinese friend at a prestigious Harbin engineering institute was able to secure him a post through guanxi. His travails for the paperwork, however, were endless, and he hit the same brick walls and the same glass ceilings that Abe seems to be encountering. Parts of China are somewhat enlightened; others are decidedly not.

So my first thought is that there are some games going on with the persons with whom he is involved.

2. The University Degree

On this very forum, Abe put up a query about working in China as a Canadian citizen but with a degree from a non-English speaking country. This may be another concern to one or either of the recruiters and/or schools. To be fair, Abe did mention a school in Guangzhou which I believe I may have identified, and if indeed it is that school, the foreign language university diploma may or may not be a problem. It may be a problem, however, with the school in the hinterland where thinking never escapes from the box.

Abe did mention about the possibility of working at a university 900 kilometres inland from the East Coast but that would put him in neanderthal country where all of Points 1 and 2 would come to play against him.

3. A Possible Solution

If I were in Abe's shoes, with the foreign language university degree, and with a teacher portrait that might escape from a Chinese FAO's wishes, I would probably find myself a (good if that exists) recruiter in either Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hangzhou or Nanjing who would have experience with all of points 1 and 2 above. The foreign language university degree can be easily enough overcome with a statement of equivalency from the Ministry of Education and the Canadian passport will carry the rest. If he is not Canadian born, however, there may be concerns, and I say may be and not "will be", concerns about Abe's use of the English language. In that case, he might consider a lengthy interview with someone from the school.

As we probably all are aware, when things become dicey with the Chinese, they prefer to avoid direct confrontation and they definitely prefer to avoid having to tell the truth, when and if they ever do in such circumstances. The more ickey gooey something becomes in China, the more a foreigner should be aware that the truth lies elsewhere.

Those are just my thought after having thought through this carefully with my own China experience in hand.

I wish Abe the very best.