Job Discussion Forums

[Fortigurn]

[A.K.A.T.D.N.]

I disagree with most of you for now but. . .time will tell.

I don't feel as deeply offended by some of the personal and social slights here(Taiwan,) and not nearly as badgered and bugged by a zillion kids on the streets. This counts for something.

I don't think there's half the rudeness in Taiwan that there is in Korea. This fact is what I've since experienced, and express with relief.

I also don't think there's as much biasness in the workplace, but this too, is just my first and general impression. In all, I found Koreans to be more intolerable of other people and too belligerent.

[nasigoreng]

I taugtht In Taiwan for 2 years and now I've been in Korea for almost 4 months.

The thread starter is in Taipei which can't be compared to the rest of the island (as previously mentioned) . If were to go back to Taiwan.. I wouldn't live anywhere except Taipei. ... eveywhere else is just a sewer.

I'm in Ulsan s.Korea population (1million) and this is what I got going for me:

* a convenient public transportation system (bus) i can understand and use.

* a much better social life (lots of different activity groups-music,drama, outdoors, etc...)

* korean girls are a lot more approachable than Taiwanese.

* more money ( 1 mo. salary bonus and round-trip airfare)

* paid accomodation - my apartment in taiwan was better, but this one's free.

* In Korea I've encounter a lot more Koreans who are 'fluent' English speakers than in Taiwan. Some of my 12 y.o. students are practically fluent already(they went through an emersion program).

* In Taiwan I felt like a CLOWN. I feel more like a teacher here.

* Nature: mountains, parks, forests, that are accessible and enjoyable - not filled with loud Taiwanese people throwing their garbage everywhere.

*Korea has quasi-developed tourist information and info on how to get to the attractions! Not Taiwan: the Taiwanese tourism industry is a joke.

*Koreans have a lot more personality than the shy-robotic Taiwanese. Koreans have their own faults, but I feel like they're easier to teach (The Taiwanese just stare at their shoes and say... 'i don't know').

what i miss about Taiwan:
* Learning mandarin wasn't so hard but I'm having problems with korean.
* passion fruit juice and pearl milk tea.
* making big money off private lessons/overtime.

[skunk_booty]

All i can say to the previous post is.... you have only been here four months, I have taught in Korea now for 10 months. The robotic, lack of personality issues you speak of could be my Korean students... From what I understand this is the same everywhere in Asia.

I certainly don't feel like a teacher here... more an educational babysitter.
At least Taiwanese kids say "I don't know!"... I had an hour long class this morning where I had to write those three words on the board in order to get my kids to say it...

That is all...

[donfan]

Comparing Taiwan and Korea is like comparing heaven and hell. Taiwan rocks. I enjoyed every moment of the two years I spent there while I spent the whole three months I was in Korea wishing I was anywhere but.

[nasigoreng]

[donfan]

Yes I spent most of my time in Taipei but I can't see how that is relevant. The comparison is between Korea and Taiwan of which Taipei is a part. I agree that experience plays a large part of your perception. I absolutely loathed my job in Korea which probably tarnished my perceptions of the place in general whereas I loved my job in Taiwan which probably meant that I was willing to overlook some of the not so positive aspects of the country. However I still think that Taiwan is a much much better place. Even though I'll probably never get to go back there to work I miss it.

[Aristotle]

[blackguy-n-Asia]

[Fortigurn]

[liehtzu]

Haven't been to Taiwan, but I think one's appreciation of a place has a lot to do with two often overlooked factors: 1) the job and 2) one's personal outlook on life. I had an absolute cakewalk job in Korea and a boss who coddled me to an almost embarassing degree. I'd have a rockin' kalbi dinner and hit the pubs with my female Korean coworkers or some of my local whity pals (only about 30, all white, foreigners where I lived) and have a blast well into the night. I even learned to love karaoke (key: drink a lot and imagine you can actually sing). I was in small-town Korea and didn't find it all that stifling and dull, and if I ever did I'd hop a bus to Seoul (2 hrs away), a city I don't particularly like but that provided a welcome break from the norm. It's true what's been said that Korean people can be somewhat anti-social or what we in the West would perceive as rude, but I think that stems from unfamiliarity with us waigoren and a frustration over not being able to communicate adequately rather than an outright hatred of foreigners - once again, I'm talking small city here; in Seoul many of 'em really do hate you. And most small-town girls - small-town people - in Korea or anywhere are just plain timid.

(But I'm also speaking from a white fella's perspective; from what I saw and heard Korean attitudes towards blacks need a major, major amount of tweaking. They also hate Japanese. As do the Chinese. As do, I'm sure, the Taiwanese. Welcome to east Asia.)

I knew many folks who just went into K with a bad attitude and thus everything turned out badly. It's the first living abroad experience - or even the first actual job experience - for many Western people. And Korea ain't Kansas or Newfoundland. If you've never left home before and find yourself in Korea there's a heavy unfamiliarity factor, and if you decide to try somewhere else (in Asia) next you have a little bit better of an idea of what to expect, so the second place can come off looking much nicer.

You also have to be aware of the impressions many foreigners make on the locals: demanding, whiny, loud, overpaid, unfriendly... Not all, for sure, but there are a lot of jokers in Korea. And why not? Korea'll hire 'em and it's better than working the 7-11 back home. Seoulites' impressions of Westerners come very much from a certain area in Seoul (the name of which I won't mention) and a certain military presence in that area (from what source I won't mention) that consists of a lot of young fellows who tend to, because they're young and fulla piss and vinegar and have never left home before, get drunk and make royal messes of themselves frequently. This can involve general loud belligerence, fistfights with the locals, mistreatment of local women, etc. (though to be fair there has also been much positive, like the soldier who donated his blood - a rare type in Korea - to save a K girl, that made a tiny blip in the local papers). The government behind said military presence also tends to treat the K govt with an abundance of condescension and Koreans, bless em, seem to assume that everyone foreign is a member of the country to which said government and said military belongs.

Taiwan sounds nice and I'm definitely looking forward to heading there soon. But I wonder why it is that so many folks knock Korea... I know that there are many faults with the place, but I think the food's excellent (better than the Thai food I get these days!), the nightlife is terrific (even in the small cities), the women are beautiful (if occassionally standoffish), the money great for an easy job, the nature outing possibilities many and, being something of a film buff, you just can't beat Korea for the amount of interesting flicks being released on a yearly basis.

My two cents.

[wood]

I lived in Korea for nearly four years and have been in Taiwan for nearly four. I enjoyed my time in Korea as I'm enjoying my time in Taiwan. I'm interested in languages and have never been encountered a want for things to do. Studying the local languages fills your time and--at least for me--convinces you that you are still moving forward. I'm speaking specifically of Seoul and Taipei. Great cities to live in.

[A.K.A.T.D.N.]

In response to Liehtzu's post, I can only interject that I was in Korea for over five and a half years! I Let me share with you some stories, or facts you may not know.

In regards to social diseases(Actually, there are six in Korea.)

*Over 10,000 people get killed on Korean roads every year. It's the worlds second worst country in regards to traffic fatalities.
*Korean men drink, on average, four days a night, Korea ranks fourth in the world for the consumption of alcoholic beverages, and on average 40% or more of Korean men over 40 die of liver disease.
*Korea has the highest percentage of smokers in the world.
*The divorce rate is over 50% now.
*Prostitution consists of 10% of the GNP, and if you get to know your way around, you can view the young ladies in their traditional hanboks waiting like manequins for you in glass windows. And prostitution, of course, is supposed to be illegal.
*In regards to sex, a young American man was caught having sex with a man's wife and sentenced to six months in jail for adultery. Yet Korean men are never charged in light of visiting the brothels mentioned above or having their ubiquitous affairs, nor has one case of a Korean man being charged for this same act been documented in years.
*Koreans have one of the highest percentage of orphans.
*Bribery and corruption are commonplace, and the act of commiting them a part of life there.


In regards to civil life:

*Koreans bump and push even to get into an elevator first. Makes sense, since they'll be the last ones out.
*Koreans will stare at you for minutes at a time, something I've yet to see here once while in Taipei.
*If a Korean bumps into you they will not say excuse me. The Chinese do.
*I daily crossed an intersection near my house where I saw two people almost get killed by cars blowing red lights(I think I saved one person.) I myself was almost killed in a van while a cement truck blew by us.
*Koreans will ask you 'the 20 questions' time and time again. If you don't know what these are, just wait. It's always "Where are you from?" that starts the litany. I've hardly heard this a once while in Taipei.
*Korean kids are a horror, often chasing you down roads, calling you names, laughing and pointing at you. The mothers will do nothing about this, whereas in contrast I've heard a Chinese mother just the other day berrating her child for calling me a "babu," if this is the correct interpretation. This scenario has only happened to me once while in Taipei. And just wait, it gets too you fast.
*Korean students are apt to make the stupidest, most ignorant and rudest of remarks on Earth. I once had a Korean woman tell me she thought Communism was okay. Another college student of mine started out the day by saying "Who has the easiest job here?" Of course, he meant me. Another student comes into class and starts out the conversation by stirring up the other students with "Why should we learn English?" Still another complains about the fact of American toilets being too big. Another complains to me that Bush put the madman up north down. One woman(my boss) wanted me to hug her one night. Another businessman tells me that he thought Korean would be the next world language. Still other Korean teenagers want to visit my apartment, one housewife wants to cook for me, another woman asks me if I'm gay.

Outside class, and in regards to 911, all I heard was F-----k you, USA. During the World Cup the whole town went berserk with kids chanting in Nazi fashion as they passed me every step of the way, "Tae hae Han Min-guk." One drunk at a restuarant called me a "babo" because I wouldn't watch the matches.
*Never in my life have I been called a "Wae-gukin," or foreigner, so many times in one day. This is not only accompanied with stares, it's accompanied with finger pointing and laughs.
*I once walked down the street heading into town when three goofy looking women passed me by. One shook her head in my direction, nodding for the others to take a look, laughing aloud as if I were some sideshow.

In regards to work:

*Korean children are extremely spoiled. If you want to teach them, be prepared for complaints upon complaints from their mothers.
*Most hagwons don't care about whether or not the children really learn. They're there to take the parents' money, and you're caught in the middle.
*Most hagwons have connections with immigration. They own you. Disagree, and your history.
*If Korean employers can, they'll make you the school clown. You can't be serious, must always be treated as if you're misunderstanding, must obey the boss at all costs. And those bosses can be the worst in ESLdom.
*Depending on where you are, Koreans will try to use you and cut costs at every corner. Don't expect for you to always find free rent or not to have to pay a deposit. I had one school want to charge me over 600,000 won for security deposit.
*More foreigners get jipped in Korea than any other country on Earth. That is, in regards to being paid for teaching.
*If you are jipped, don't expect any help from the government or immigration. It's worse than Taiwan.

In regards to law:

*I heard of a story about a guy who got hit over the head with a bottle by a Korean guy at a nightclub. He pointed out the culprit, but once the police arrived, all they said was, "You shouldn't have been dancing with his Korean girlfriend." The guy had to get 25 stitches.
*The law is extremely biased, which is why American military is apt to take matters into their own hands. The justice system of Korea is 50% that of America's and Japan's, has no jury system, and is often corrupt and full of bribery.
*A lady once was walking here dog in the park without a leash. I was walking mine, with a leash. Her dog attacked mine, whereby I kicked it away. Next thing I know, a girl comes running at me trying to kick me, whereby I kicked her back. I had to pay a 500,000 dollar fine. She got off scott free.
*To admit a wrong in Korea is to make an admission of guilt, thereby exonerating the other party completely. Therefore, if both are wrong, or you feel that someone else was wrong too, never admit your faults. You'll be blamed completely. Take this from the American military. Often they're assaulted and ridiculed left and right, but if retaliating in return, are often painted black.
*A Brittish guy once got into a traffic accident while in Korea. The other Korean driver proceeded to confront this man for being wrong-even though he was in the wrong- to the point of grabbing his shirt and being insulting. In self-defense the Brittish guy knocked him on his ass. Needless to say, the Brittish guy was found in the wrong and fined 500,000 won.

Must I go on? What about animal cruelty, about equal rights between men and women, about pollution and environmental destruction? What about discrimmination of minority workers in Korea, about the myriads of Russians and Phillipinos abused of their rights at night clubs and in red light districts; of the case of the Fillipino women who were locked in their hotel rooms so they wouldn't escape, thereby being burned alive when a fire broke out and incinerated the brothel?

I could go on. Makes me sick. You can't just say that "Oh well, these are their customs, the West isn't perfect either." I doubt you can say "I'm just seeing the negative side" either. Remember, I was there for over five years. Yes, I enjoyed it at first too. I loved the nature, the things some of you mentioned. But the mindset of these people is what got me most, and the mindset of some of the foreigners there, all foreigners of whom just seemed there for a free ride.

And guess what. In the end I got put in deportation status, all because my hagwon owner broke the contract illegally and had connections with immigration, making me have to leave the country or else. Well, I didn't care about this country anymore, and think I really never will or should.

[chi-chi-]

AKADTN, I hope we haven't argued on another board, because that was a very concise and accurate explanation of Korea.
I liked it.
Although I do disagree about Taiwan being better.
It isn't.
It's even worse, and I do hate breaking the news to you.
Wait until you find the job.
It really is worse than Korea.
I only lasted 3 months in Taiwan before I (almost) got deported, in Korea I was able to last 15 months before the same thing happened (almost got deported there, too.)
People wonder why people stay in Korea and complain about it. The answer is, they cannot go home for some reason (no offense to them-it just happens for whatever reason) and Korea is the only country you can stay in if you're really broke (unfortunately.)
Of course, you can always save you $$$ and go somewhere else, do a runner even, if your Korean boss won't let you leave.
But I wouldn't recommend doing that runner to Taiwan. I would go to Japan (even if it means staying in Korea longer and saving more $$$).
Japan itself is not utopia but it is the closest place to the West that you will find in Asia, with the exception of Singapore. And regardless of whether it's PC or not, you DO want the concept of "Westernization", with all the legal rights that this entails. If you are actually working, at least.
Japan itself is also very corrupt. Just like Korea, I received dozens upon dozens of illegal job offers, but if you're a real "whitey" (blonde blue-eyed) and or young and male, you should have an easier time finding legal work. Japan is still about 50 years behind the West with corruption and legal issues, but they are light years ahead of Taiwan+Korea.
Just my two cents
Chi

[A.K.A.T.D.N.]

Chi-Chi,

I didn't get the meaning of your first sentence. Did you mean to say we argued about this point before, ie., on the Korean board? Or do you mean what I said in my previous post was or was not to the point? Not sure.

Anyway, I think that Taiwan in comparison to Korea is only different to a degree, not completely so. I think I've found the mannerisms of the people or the lack of cultural ethnocentrism to be of most import here, as well as some of the facts I mentioned regarding civil life. These aspects make for more peace of mind.

Yes, I suppose the Taiwanese are quite ethnocentric too, but this sense of ultra-nationalism is not as rampant here, nor this cultural absolutism/anti-Westernism that often leads one astounded. Then again, I don't want to go around Korean-bashing anymore or sound like an imperialist. My objective here was to find out if Korean culture did indeed present a dilemma in and of itself, a point that many expats here in Taiwan seem to agree with. I could never get this feedback while in Korea or on the Korean board, for some unknown and strange reason that I think many there refused to realize or relate to. But then there might be some that are just making it better than I did there, so I'll leave it at that.