Job Discussion Forums

[Bogazicibaby]

I second your thoughts Mike.

[ghost]

If you read Ghost`s Turkish entries, his Turkish includes normal conversational Turkish in the Present and Past tenses....and that is not simply a direct translation from English.....

Looks like Mike likes to belittle others and engage in self agrandizement...but he should put his theories into practice....and write a little bit of Turkish on these pages (without help from his `friends`) then we will be better able to judge how good his Turkish is.....? Easy to criticize others without doing your own self analysis.

Comparing learning Turkish with Italian is also not valid, because all of us have had exposure to Romance languages at school, and Italian is therefore far easier to acquire than Turkish which has basically no resemblance to the languages we are familiar with.

In essence the facts are simple....unless you study Turkish in a formal way, there is little or no hope that you will make progress in the language, no matter how long you stay in Turkey. Ghost met dozens of English teachers in Turkey who had been there (in Turkey) for years, and most of them spoke little or no Turkish. When going out on the town with the English teachers, Ghost always took on the job of unofficial translator...and it was embarrassing to explain to the Turks that Ghost was the one who had lived in Turkey the least amount of time, yet possessed the best Turkish skills.

Turkish language is not one that will grow on you like osmosis...unless you are a child under the age of 10 or so. Formal study at Tomer will reap big dividends, and make your life a lot easier in the country in the long run. Being an illiterate yabanci is not much fun in the long run....and everyone can do it if they so desire.

Humans have a natural inclination toward laziness, and the Tomer course will pump you into shape, because you have to attend 4 hours a day and 5 days a week (from 9am to 1pm). It is the great antidote to laziness and inertia...the last being man`s great enemy....

Also Tomer will not break your bank balance....the hourly tuition works out roughly at $3 (U.S.) an hour....which is a nice change from what they charge for private Turkish tuition in Montreal and Ottawa ($35-$50 an hour...).

[Mike_2003]

Ghost,

Tam olarak ben kimi kucumsedim, soyler misin acaba? Bana acik bir ornek verir misin? Bildigim kadar ile herkese yardimci olmaya calisiyorum, bilgim yettigince. Eger bana ornek verirsen bu konuda, beni bu konuda mutlu edeceksin.

Ayrica, lutfen aciklar misin Turkce konusunda ne zaman hava atip, kibirli davrandim. Bu sayfalarda, gordugum kadar ile, tek �agrandizement� yapan sensin! Ben hic bir zaman Turkcem mukemmel demedim. Cunku Turkceyi Turklerden daha iyi konusmam da mumkun degil, cunku Turk degilim!

Dedin ki, resmi bir kursa gitmeden Turkce ogrenilmez. Bence bu cok sacma bir iddia cunku herkes icin bu farkli, bu konuda genelleme yapmamalisin. Ben bircok yabaci ile tanistim, farkli meslekten yabancilar, ve onlarin bircogu Turkceye mazur kaldi ve bu sebebden oturu Turkceyi cabuk ve duzgun ogrenmek zorunda kaldilar. Fakat ogretmenler, ozelllikle ozel okulda calisan ogretmenler, cogu zaman Ingilizce kullanmak zorunda kaldi ve maruz kalmaktansa, Ingilizce bir ortam icinde bulunmak zorunda kaldilar.

Simdiye kadar Turkce yazmadim. Hic kimseye, ozellikle sana, hic birseyi kanitlamama gerek yok. Tuckcem iyi olmadigi icin, biraz cekindim. Hatta, ne kadar iyi yazsam, her zamanki arkadaslarimdan yardim almami soylebilirsin. Yani, seni inandirmam mumkun mu?

Kendine iyi bakma,

Mike

[Gomez]

To Mr. or Mrs. Ghost, why did you come out swinging with the writing in Turkish in the first place? Literary-wise, it seems a bit masturbatory. You write in Turkish (gotta say, not the best Turkish either) about people not learning Turkish. So...then...why? They can't read it. I point out not the best Turkish because I think if you're going to make a point about how much you learned and how motivated you were, then you had better write it perfectly. Otherwise it lacks the integrity I think you meant it to have.

I have a friend who has lived her for a decade and is married to a Turk and can't speak Turkish very well. My brother lived here a year and was fluent. He studied Turkish history, so he needed to be. I think language learning often depends a lot on the need. Many English teachers live or hang out with people who speak English and their job is to speak English. They don't really have a strong need to learn perfect Turkish or even bad Turkish. They can ask for a check, buy akbil, find a plumber, etc. I can only go so far with my vocabulary (which is not very small either), and then it's easier to switch to English with someone who speaks English quite well. For example, I have a hard time explaining to people what the Electoral College is and the details of elections in the US using Turkish. I simply don't know the technical vocabulary in turkish, although my grammar is good. As Mike said, he can read books and watch films and the desire to do be able to do that often generates a need. I don't ride the bus around the city all day, because I don't need to. I ride it to work and that's far enough. Of course, if I rode around all day, I'd come to know the city really well, but I don't. If I spoke and studied all day all the time, I would speak fluently. But I don't. I'd rather meet people and communicate any way we can. Also, there are a lot of international people here who don't speak Turkish. English is the common language for most people from different countries who meet each other. I have a french friend married to a Turk. They speak English at home. When I visit them, we speak English. When we order a pizza and the guy on the phone is from Urfa and I can't understand his accent or his questions, I pass the phone to the Turkish guy. It's just easier and it saves a loooot of time and frustration. I, as are a lot of people here, am living my life here. I'm not here temporarily. Sometimes motivation for learning Turkish comes second to motivation for finding a doctor. I speak Turkish to the receptionist, but when I'm with the doc, I definitely speak English. I just don't know the Turkish word for adenoids (although a lot of medical terms are from French and are the same in English). The doctor speaks excellent English, so why not just speak English with him. It doesn't make me feel lazy or like an ugly American. You can get my idea I guess.

I have a friend from the US who left a $100,000 a year PR job to come here and teach English. Actually, he wanted to come here and live and he fell into teaching. I would imagine there are tons of people like that here. I left a screenwriting job in Los Angeles to come here. I wanted out and I had family here and I came. I started teaching after I came.

I think some of your ideas are good, but why say them? You're preaching to the choir. And without proofreading the Turkish in your paragraphs? We would probably all agree that when living in Turkey it's best to learn the language. The whole place opens up to you if you speak the language. You can get around easier, get what you want from stores easier, find out information easier. But people are people. Some are lazy, some aren't. Some just don't care, some do, you know? Some people had easy lives growing up, some didn't. Some have different motivations than others for being here. You can't lump everyone together.

And writing about yourself in third person is a little creepy. It's entirely your right to do it, but it is a little creepy.

Go ahead and write a scathing reply if you want to. It's your right and it may make you feel better after the other critiques of your post.

[Gomez]

The *beep* in my above paragraph was used by the webmaster (and rightly so) to cut out an "M" word I used that means self gratification. Sorry to have broken the user agreement. Won't happen again.

[yaramaz]

Since ghost's OP Turkish paragraph was addressed to me, I think he was trying to insinuate that I was one of the lazy ones who didnt take the Super Duper Tomer 2-Month Miracle Course and am therefore functionally illiterate in Turkish. Alas, no. I could read it easily-- See D!ck, See D!ck run. See Sally, etc.

(Ghost, that was a joke--- kindly refrain from flaming me back with some snarky remark about my private life)

For two years I have been going through my Turkish grammar books, carrying my little yellow dictionary, and trying very hard to follow staff meetings and films and conversations over tea. And over the course of two years my level has improved drastically, thanks especially to a few good Turkish friends who did not try to coddle me with English.

However, all this said, why should I or anyone here have to defend their linguistic abilities to you? I can speak several other languages quite well and Turkish is only the latest attempt. I have spoken to my kayseri tailor in fractured German (vaguely recalled from time in Berlin 10 years ago), to the butik guy in Dutch, and French to a great Turkish friend who lives part time in Paris who spoke no English but spoke French... not to mention exceptionally honed skills in miming and sign language! I think the fact that I can function on my own in a very untouristed part of central anatolia using any linguistic resources I have at hand is no mean feat.

O, and ghost, stop telling us who we are and why we are unprofessional, lazy, and can't make it in our own countries. We made a choice and we each have our reasons.

[dmb]

What a fantastic post Gomez

[ghost]

The point Gomez misses is that Ghost learned enough Turkish in the short time he was there (6 months total with 2 months of study) to communicate with people in his daily life....which is more than most EFL teachers can do in Turkey (more than most - not including Yaramaz of course!).

Gomez states that if one makes a point about having some Turkish knowledge, then the Turkish on display should be `perfect.` But the point is that when learning a language when you first start speaking it in the first months, mistakes will be made...but communication is still going through and contact is being made. You have people who have perfect accuracy, but they are not able to communicate because they are so inhibited in their output.

In language learning making mistakes is part of `risk taking` in the new language, and a survey of Second Language Learners at McGill University, Montreal (Ghost`s Alma Mater) shows that Second Language Learning `risk takers` are more successful in acquiring functional fluency in a second or more language in a relatively short period of time. The down side to that is that mistakes will be made.

The person who studies a language `bottom up` focusing on all the rules etc....will have good accuracy but will often take years to become fluent because she/he is obsessed with accuracy....they will miss opportunities in the field. And they will be inhibited when speaking in their new language because they focus too much on accuracy to the detriment of communication.

A good anology would be to look at the differences in why children under age 10 acquire second or more languages with such ease, mostly in play (not formal language learning) situations. These children, mostly 10 and under, have minds like sponges which are uninhibited and they will copy and reproduce the new language with their new foreign playmates. Adults can do the same, but we do not `play` as much, and we are shy....

The courses Ghost took at Tomer Ankara and Tomer Antalya bear the truth because students there are tested in 6 different areas at the end of each course...and if you do not pass one level, you cannot go on to level 2 or higher. The evaluators at Tomer do not permit one to go further if the level is not met.

Some posters on this forum take pleasure in pointing out the mistakes of new language learners, but these people should look at the whole picture and recognize that anyone who has the guts to at least try to communicate in the new language should be commended.

[Gomez]

No, I agree. I make mistakes left and right. I was just saying that on a forum like this one if you whip out a post written in Turkish which may be construed as bashing some of the foreign teachers who are in Istanbul and don't learn Turkish (some of whom may be posting on this site), then, you know, you ought to proofread it. At least for the veya/ve stuff. And Turkce is a noun so it can't go with dil. Turk dili is "turkish language". Turkce just means "Turkish" as in the language. If you want you can have Ghostce, which would be the language spoken by Ghost. "Turkish" as an adjective is "Turk". Just little stuff like that. I applaud you for writing that post. I wouldn't have had the balls. But I think a lot of people picked up on the repeated mistakes and although you definitely took a risk, it rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way. I've often wondered why people here for years and years don't speak Turkish. To me it makes sense to learn the language of where you are. Well or poorly, at least learn it. At the very least it's respectful. Anyway, big balls to write that first post. Risk taker.

[Gomez]

Thanks DMB. I appreciate it.

[Otterman Ollie]

Hi

After all of ghost`s rantings about our lack of moivation in the language skills ,the question remains why did he not apply the same level of commitment and motivation to his job? Maybe he would still be here dazzling all and sundry with his greatness .

[calsimsek]

Look I can speak the local lingo as good as any Turk and I feel that after so many years here I have to 'ana dils'.
Yet I still screw up sometimes, the key thing is that I can say what I want the way I want to.

[scot47]

scot47 agrees wıth ghost

some may saythat scot47 has lost his proverbial marbles

scot47 d1sagrees

[ghost]

[dmb]

I know it has been said before but Ghost, your experience of Turkey isn't everybody's experience