Job Discussion Forums

[myesl]

I would only disagree with Steve on two points,
1) you don't need visa runs if you go to a school attached to a university,as long as you pay attention to the things in my earlier posts on this thread (unless they've completely changed the rules in the last year and a half).
2) I had a work permit for a year and half and a resident visa as a student for a year. In both cases the "best jobs" I had were not full time, though I never dared working at a school illegally.

[wombat]

To work here without an ARC, whatever your reasons for doing this may be, means working illegally. Adding to TaoyuanSteve's earlier list, you are more likely to be ripped off by a school that you are working at illegally. Imagine, getting all of those other affairs in order, and working for a month only to find that the school chooses not to pay you at the end of the month! What are you going to do? Nothing!! Because there is nothing that you CAN do if you are working illegally. I know it, you know it, but more importantly the school knows it!

If the reason you can't get an ARC is lack of tertiary qualifications - then buckle down and get them like the rest of us.

If the reason is something beyond your control such as nationality - then maybe you can find another career here rather than teaching English.

[Waldorf Salad]

I worked illegally for two years and although I prefer to have an ARC, it's not a big deal not to have one. Many people prefer to work illegally, even when they have the option to get an ARC. Sign up for Chinese classes, attend them or not, find a few teaching hours here and a few there. And if you don't like a certain school, find something else. Yes, there's a possibility that you'll get ripped off by a school, but it's not very likely. Very unlikely, in fact. After six months, take a break in Thailand or The Philippines (you don't pay taxes, so I'm sure you can afford it). To stay sane, it's a good idea to get out of Taiwan regularly, anyway.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

[wood]

[wombat]

Of course just working illegally doesn't mean that you will automatically be ripped off, however the chances of this occuring are much higher. This is just logical, and it seems pretty silly to attempt to argue that it isn't the case. Any employer that is willing to employ you illegally obviously has no respect for either you as a teacher, nor the laws that protect you. It stands to reason that they would be equally as unconcerned with any dispute that you may have with pay or conditions etc. Are you trying to suggest that this is not the case?

[Waldorf Salad]

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

Speaking from personal experience aslo, I've worked illegally and haven't been ripped off yet. So have many people I've known in the Taiwan EFL scene.

Talk to Scott Sommers or even Aristotle about what rights or recourse foreign workers have in Taiwan if our empoyers rip us off.

Contract or no contract - there is little we can do if a school decides to treat you unfairly.

[TaoyuanSteve]

Every now and then I hear people claim illegal work is better than legal. I have challenged those people to prove it. They never have.

Working without an ARC is possible, yes, but not prefereable; certainly not adviseable over the long term.

These are the only advantages I've seen:

Ability to come and go from jobs without change in visa status
no taxes

The disadvantages are somewhat lengthier:

Costs for language courses you may or may not attend
Inability to obtain the best jobs (no matter what some may tell you, the best employers want to hire you legally; that means degree and ARC eligibility)
Visa trips (cost and time lost). Some people call these "vacations." I prefer to take my vacations voluntarily, thank you.
You can't legally own anything (not even a cell number anymore)
The slight tax advantage you gain also provides the justification for government crackdown on illegal workers
Knowledge that your next visa extension may be denied for any reason
It gets harder and harder to explain those extensions
no health insurance
As has already been mentioned, the risk of being ripped off without any way of recovering your loss. Why? Schools who hire illegals are often unlicensed and illegal themselves.

The majoriy of people I've known who've worked using the language school-visitor-visa-extension-method have been doing so because they lack the necessary qualifications for a resident visa. I repeat what I've already said: If an ARC is not really an option for you, reconsider your plans to come here.

[TaoyuanSteve]

[quote="Rice Paddy Daddy"]Speaking from personal experience aslo, I've worked illegally and haven't been ripped off yet. So have many people I've known in the Taiwan EFL scene.

Talk to Scott Sommers or even Aristotle about what rights or recourse foreign workers have in Taiwan if our empoyers rip us off.

Contract or no contract - there is little we can do if a school decides to treat you unfairly.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

[wombat]

[Waldorf Salad]

[TaoyuanSteve]

Still no proof illegal work is better. Still no real response to anything I've written re: advantages vs disadvantages of illegal work.

Look. I'm not claiming illegal work isn't possible. It obviously is. What I am claiming is legal work is preferable. There are a multitude of reasons I've already listed.

I dispute the claim that thousands of westerners are currently working here illegally. The majority of teachers I've met are ARC holders. And I'll tell you that, despite all the empty arguments that illegal work is great, those who do not have an ARC almost always don't qualify for one.

In response to the "Hearsay" claim, I assert that I have shown a specific instance where a foreigner was able to make the system here work for her, precisely because she is a LEGAL RESIDENT. Ths comes from my personal experience. True, it is not the compelling airtight evidence of the sort required to get a man convicted in a court of law; but we are not in a court, are we? You may dispute my honesty if you wish, though I have nothing to gain from lying. Anyway my anecdotal evidence is far more than you've provided to back up your claim that the system here never works in favor of Foreign teachers. It seems you think saying so is evidence enough.

I've said this so many times now (threads like this have come up before from time to time) I feel like a broken record: If you really believe illegal work is better than legal, prove it. I am directly challenging you to produce a reasoned argument, with evidence, that clearly outlines why illegal work is so good. Up to now, none have been put forward.

Really, I think I've investigated this matter thoroughly. I've considered doing the "illegal" thing because a few individuals had led me to believe that there was some thing that made this arrangement better. However, there really are very few advantages to illegal work, and a long list of disadvantages. At one time, large numbers of people worked illegally here. The ARC system has, over time, proven to be the preferable way to live and work here. The fact that one-time illegals have bought into the system attests to the advantage of legal work and residence. The truth of the matter is; if you don't qualify for an ARC, your job options will be more limited, your costs and hassles greater and your benefits fewer.

[wood]