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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, one doesn't need brain research to know bored people (of any age) don't learn well. What makes one person bored, however, may excite another. Boredom, like beauty, happiness, whathaveyou, is in the eye of the beholder.
I hated school as a kid precisely because they wanted me to do 'kid stuff' which I found very boring. I just wanted someone to teach me something without all the sillyness. Maybe I'm unusual, but I know I wasn't the only kid in class who didn't like being treated like a kid when learning.
It's very easy to get most kids to have a good time and at the same time not teach them a thing. So, we shouldn't make this into such a simple argument as "kids only learn when singing songs (etc)" vs. "singing songs (etc) is baby-sitting not teaching". People of all ages have different learning styles. |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| You're probably unusual. I've been teaching kids for more than 5 years and believe me... kids want to play. Of course people have different learning styles and some kids like to sing songs and others don't, but they all want to play. Every single one of them. No kid has ever asked me: "Hey teacher, please explain me the difference between these and those once more and let's reinforce that by doing some drills." Children are not adults, they have a very different sort of motivation. Oh, and kids LOVE silly stuff. Bring some old clothes when you're teaching clothes and let them dress up. Very silly, but I guarantee you, they will go wild. Or have a look at a site like www.englishraven.com. There are tons of very good and very useful card games there. |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| There are lots of different ways of teaching. Seems to me that many of the people on this board aren't aware of this. |
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chi-chi-
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 194
Location: In la-la land
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:23 am Post subject: |
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The place where I worked had kids in class for 2 1/2 hours at a time.
The co-teacher did not help, but tried to find things to get me in trouble about, like not marking papers fast enough, etc, etc.
Schools don't care if you're qualified or not, they don't do background checks, but they do prefer young blondes and redheads, men especially. (The bushiban I worked at eventually became an all male teaching environment....and some of the men were so scruffy!)
Plenty of alcoholics who don't like kids. (No offense to the good teachers out there.)
They can kick you out of the country (ie cancel your visa) without you knowing it if you accidently make them angry.
I wouldn't blame those kids for hating Westerners when they get older. If the situation were reversed, I'd probably hate Asians, and you guys would too. The way the kids are forced to be little "geniuses" is child abuse IMHO.
Chi |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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A.K.A.T.D.N.
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Bart wrote: |
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| I agree that singing songs and games are teaching. So are all the other things you mentioned. There are, however, some schools that don't do any of that. Some of them are quite successful. |
Successful in what? Making money maybe... There are probably enough retarded parents in Taiwan who think that having fun while learning will harm their children.
But if the schools you mentioned stick to drills and grammar we can be pretty sure that the kids aren't learning anything. Anyone who has taught kids for more than a day knows that kids will be bored as hell when you do that. There's a lot we don't know about second language acquisition, but one of the things we do know (especially from brain research) is that a state of boredom will cause bad learning results. Fun in the classroom is essential.
Boredom also causes discipline problems. Discipline problems lead to complaining teachers, complaining teachers lead to parents beating the crap out of their kids and parents beating the crap out of their kids result in scared kids. And fear again leads to bad learning results.
Do your students a favor: prepare your classes and make sure it's fun and if you don't want to do that, don't teach kids. |
You say "fun in the classroom" Bart, but how limited are you to this word when kids can't understand anything but "fun?"
What I'm saying, Bart, is that DISCIPLINE IS NECESSARY, despite fun and games, the latter of which are really the byproduct of hard work and discipline which without the students would just be having fun, no?
Honestly, tell me what games really teach children, and that the rudiments of English? Did you always PLAY GAMES in school when you were a kid? Everything you always needed to know, was it learned in kindergarten?
Teachers like you make honest and serious teachers look like fools, and really don't know the requirements of teaching ESL. |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think you missed my point. I merely meant to point out that there were other ways. The original poster wanted to find a job that didn't force him to do things he wasn't comfortable doing--things like singing and dancing, etc. There are schools that don't do songs or games. And it is possible to have fun without songs or games. In fact, I believe it's possible for almost any teacher to find a school that is suitable to his/her teaching style. You can go on arguing about this, but I see no point. Likewise I don't understand why you'd get all excited about me posting something as simple and innocent as the fact that there are schools that do things in different ways. If you've been here five years, then you ought to know that. |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| You say "fun in the classroom" Bart, but how limited are you to this word when kids can't understand anything but "fun" |
What are you talking about? "kids can't understand anything but fun". This fun experience helps you to learn better. Did you check any of the links above?
| Quote: |
| What I'm saying, Bart, is that DISCIPLINE IS NECESSARY, despite fun and games, the latter of which are really the byproduct of hard work and discipline which without the students would just be having fun, no? |
Did I say that discipline is not necessary? Do fun and games contradict discipline? You don't understand it at all, dear A.K.A.T.D.N. Discipline problems start when kids are bored. Playing a game doesn't mean there's no discipline.
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| Honestly, tell me what games really teach children, and that the rudiments of English? |
Games like the ones available at English Raven and all other sites about EFL teaching. Why do you think that all these sites have so many games? Because they're all idiots? Because it doesn't help students at all? Do you think it's all a conspiracy to prevent the students from learning English?
It's not only about playing games, btw. Songs for example, allow children who are just starting to learn English to achieve a level of fluency that they cannot achieve in speaking. Pronunciation problems are practically eliminated during a song.
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| Did you always PLAY GAMES in school when you were a kid? Everything you always needed to know, was it learned in kindergarten? |
I don't remember what I did in kindergarten, and no, I did not always play games in school. I'm not saying that you ALWAYS have to play games. I'm saying that games, songs, chants, crafts, dialogues, etc contribute significantly to student's learning. It's not just me who is saying that, modern science tells us this. If you would spend some more time on following the developments in language teaching and if you would read some books about TPR, multiple intelligences, etc., instead of writing puzzling stories about cowboy hats, you would know that.
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| Teachers like you make honest and serious teachers look like fools, and really don't know the requirements of teaching ESL. |
I am serious about teaching. I am doing courses, I am reading books, I am reading articles and I am following scientific developments. I'm very serious. That's why I make a point of having fun in the classroom.
Last edited by Waldorf Salad on Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| wood wrote: |
I think you missed my point. I merely meant to point out that there were other ways. The original poster wanted to find a job that didn't force him to do things he wasn't comfortable doing--things like singing and dancing, etc. There are schools that don't do songs or games. And it is possible to have fun without songs or games. In fact, I believe it's possible for almost any teacher to find a school that is suitable to his/her teaching style. You can go on arguing about this, but I see no point. Likewise I don't understand why you'd get all excited about me posting something as simple and innocent as the fact that there are schools that do things in different ways. If you've been here five years, then you ought to know that. |
You don't necessarily have to do songs, although you would miss an opportunity to work on pronunciation that you cannot find anywhere else. But the idea behind the original posting is that he or she doesn't want to do any 'silly kid's stuff'.
I'm very curious what someone's class looks like if he's not doing any of the activities that I've been talking about. These are just generally considered useful and essential. I ask you once again to show me a site or book or whatever that says they're not.
I know that there are schools that do things differently. I also know that 95% of the schools in Taiwan do things the wrong way, because they're too lazy too learn about even the most basic things of language teaching. |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bart wrote: |
| wood wrote: |
I think you missed my point. I merely meant to point out that there were other ways. The original poster wanted to find a job that didn't force him to do things he wasn't comfortable doing--things like singing and dancing, etc. There are schools that don't do songs or games. And it is possible to have fun without songs or games. In fact, I believe it's possible for almost any teacher to find a school that is suitable to his/her teaching style. You can go on arguing about this, but I see no point. Likewise I don't understand why you'd get all excited about me posting something as simple and innocent as the fact that there are schools that do things in different ways. If you've been here five years, then you ought to know that. |
You don't necessarily have to do songs, although you would miss an opportunity to work on pronunciation that you cannot find anywhere else. But the idea behind the original posting is that he or she doesn't want to do any 'silly kid's stuff'.
I'm very curious what someone's class looks like if he's not doing any of the activities that I've been talking about. These are just generally considered useful and essential. I ask you once again to show me a site or book or whatever that says they're not.
I know that there are schools that do things differently. I also know that 95% of the schools in Taiwan do things the wrong way, because they're too lazy too learn about even the most basic things of language teaching. |
If the 95% number is true, then this is a great opportunity for you to set them straight. If you don't already own and operate your own school, why not jump at the chance? Your success is guaranteed based on the simple fact that you know better than 95% of the schools in Taiwan. You'll be bigger than Hess, Joy and all the others combined!
If you're really curious about what a class that doesn't do 'silly kid's stuff' looks like, you are welcome to come observe one of my classes. My school's in Taipei and I can give you detailed directions if you PM me.
Have a nice day. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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[][
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:55 am Post subject: |
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You know, I think I was right about Seeburn when I said he'd spend the next ten years writing about his nine month Taiwan experience. The guy left Taiwan over a year ago. He only lived here for nine months (a claimed length of time I think was, sadly, "rounded up" a month or two by him). He only ever worked for one small cram school company in one part of Taiwan. Yet here he is, over a year after his departure, trying to tell everyone how all English schools all over this island operate. When a long-term, experienced teacher disagrees with his broad sweeping generalization, Seeburn throws mud (those familiar with his behaviour aren't surprised at all) and calls the guy "braindead." Here we go again...  |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| wood wrote: |
If you're really curious about what a class that doesn't do 'silly kid's stuff' looks like, you are welcome to come observe one of my classes. My school's in Taipei and I can give you detailed directions if you PM me.
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No thanks. It would be impossible to determine if your approach works if I'd just observe one of your classes. Why don't you just tell me what your method/approach looks like and on what scientific findings it is based? With references please. |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Bart wrote: |
| wood wrote: |
If you're really curious about what a class that doesn't do 'silly kid's stuff' looks like, you are welcome to come observe one of my classes. My school's in Taipei and I can give you detailed directions if you PM me.
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No thanks. It would be impossible to determine if your approach works if I'd just observe one of your classes. Why don't you just tell me what your method/approach looks like and on what scientific findings it is based? With references please. |
Sorry. Don't have time to get into it. Good luck with your school. |
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