Job Discussion Forums

[moonraven]

I in no way insulted you on this thread. However, you accused me, VERY agressively, of being agressive.

Like all of us, I am quite capable of agressive behavior--but my post about appropriate body language was not an example of it.

What you are doing is called projection. And I would appreciate your pulling that projection back.

[richtx1]

Do you guys know each other in "real life" or are you just invading each other's cyberspace?

[moonraven]

Saraswati has posted on this forum that she knows who I am--whatever that means. I haven't the faintest idea who she is--which is why I find it puzzling that since I joined this forum she has accused me of having it in for her, and chooses to take even my most general comments as personal attacks.

[Kristy Love]

What I find more than anything is that I am pretty much ignored. I get way less attention, either negative or positive than my white counterparts do here in Meixco. The white teachers I live with, espeically the blonde, seems to get all kinds of attention. When I am in the gorcery store for example, someone will very casually ask me where the gorcery carts are, when she is in the grocery store someone may run up to her and start spekaing English or say Guera. I think because I have the exact same skin color-brown and hair color-black as the majority of Meixcans most think I am Mexican.

They love my hair, which they think is so chinita because of the weather, it is very humid here. They see the differences in my apperance, but to them they re not racial differences, simply differences. ONe guy asked me if I was from Veracruz, another if I was from CUba, and another if I Was from Brazil.

Mexicans come in all colors, and I feel like I fit in here more than my white counterparts, although I have also seen very white people here. I think the thing to remember is that althoug there is skin color and hair texture variety, it is not attributed to race neccisarily, as long as it falls within a certain spectrum perhaps. I don�t know how a very dark African American, would fit into that.

P.S My favorite Mexican heroe, is Vicente Guerrero, president of MExico for short time in the 1800�s, who was half black and half Indian.

Kristy

[ls650]

I prefer to think of myself as 'beige'.

[seanie]

In my opinion, �calling it as you see it� (paraphrasing delacosta) is just a liiiitle too blithe an expression to deal with some of the issues that have been raised in this thread. I think what we are talking about is pretty complex, and I�m probably not going to do it justice either. Anyway�.

I think if you are married to a fat woman, and you like fat women, and she knows you like fat women, and she loves you, and she knows you love her, well, she may love it when you call her �gordita��every time you call her �mi gordita�, it�s probably as good as saying �mi amor�. Would she be equally happy if you called another woman �gordita�? I don�t know.

To say Mexicans �don�t mean anything� when they use terms like �gordita� is, I think, not considering the total equation�. The person using �gordita� may not mean anything (a moot point in itself) but what about the person to whom the words are said? If it really meant nothing, why are there all these products being promoted for rapid weight loss? Maybe in the past being fat was considered good; but now that people want to look like movie stars or are being educated about the ill effects of overweight, �gordo� is now increasingly negative? That�s my theory, but I await confirmation from the social scientists. What I do feel is that there are loads of people who are sensitive about their weight. I month ago I watched a programme on Oaxaca TV where they asked young people if they liked their bodies. There was a teenager who said he didn�t like his body because he was �gordito�, and he didn�t want to be. He probably would not like being called �gordito�.

Now the �moot point� about whether or not a Mexican �means nothing� when he says �gordito�, �morenito�, etc.: I�ll refer to a conversation I eavesdropped on (not requiring much effort when you are in the back of a taxi colectivo with the interlocutors). The two grandmothers were talking about their grandchildren. One had two. One of her granddaughters was �blanquita� and �bonita� (naturally, they go together ) and the other was �morenita�. The grandma said to the other grandma that she�d told her granddaughter that she loved her �although she was morena�. I wondered to myself what message she was sending her granddaughter. At the very least she was acknowledging a belief that being dark-skinned was less desirable. Did she not mean it? Would her granddaughter like being called �morena�? I wonder.

Some years ago I was in a car with some friends. We passed a couple of newlyweds walking towards their festooned car, presumably on their way to their honeymoon. The driver of the car I was in slowed down, rolled down the window as we passed, and shouted �Verga! Verga! Verga!�. I suppose he was calling it as he saw it, since very likely the bride would be getting some �verga� later..... but I looked at her face (believing this to be some Mexican custom) and she was clearly not pleased. And they say �verga� is a good thing.

I intimated above that perhaps to some �moreno� might be just another way of saying �less desirable�. What about just plain ugly? I have heard one stranger call another complete stranger on the street �feo� (no altercation between them, just a remark in passing the other person on the street). Perhaps the person who shouted it didn�t mean anything? Just calling it like it is, I guess.

To say that the names don�t mean anything doesn�t quite square with the fact that some Mexicans seem to be using politically correct language. They refer to their illegal border crossers with the neutral term �migrantes�, they say �ind�gena� instead of �indio� and they talk about disabled people as having �capacidades diferentes�. I think they do this because they have an awareness that some words have become imbued with negative connotations.

I think a person who is sensitive thinks about the possible effect of his words on another person�s feelings. We don�t know what a total stranger thinks or feels so it seems rather insensitive to me to be shouting out things at/to them on the street. I believe that that is simply uneducated, boorish behaviour. I believe most educated Mexicans (and I�m not talking only about university degrees) do not go around shouting out things at strangers on the street�at least not things like �guera�, �negra�, �gorda� �gringa�, etc�.to behave like this with someone who is a stranger and who you believe to be a foreigner is a demonstration of ignorance (even if there is no evil intent). If anyone has a friend or lover who calls them something they feel uncomfortable with I think it would be better to ask that person to respect your feelings rather than accepting it as �part of his/her culture�. The belief that it's just part of the culture is � in my opinion � probably as unexamined as the �meaninglessness� of the expression(s) used by our Mexican friends/lovers.

I�m not trying to say that educated Mexicans think exactly like �us� (and we are far from a homogenous bunch), but I do know some Mexicans who are not happy with some of these �meaningless� words either. I just don�t think it�s a simple black and white issue.

[richtx1]

[delacosta]

Seanie, my post was not meant to excuse rude, inconsiderate and ignorant behavior. You will find this to one extent or another in all parts of the world. My point was if you come here wearing your PC body armour, as the person I mentioned did, well you can expect that it will on occasion be pierced. And if one allows the actions of rude, prejudiced, ignorant, whatever...type pf person to injure one's self( oh the delicate ego how easily it bruises) then you are really doing them a favor and granting them a lot more power than they ever imagined possible.
But there is a difference in intent, and that is obvious from where it is coming from. If you walk through the market and get offended at every person calling out 'guero/a', which this person did, are you going to then say all the market vendors are a bunch of insensitive racists? Yeah I guess you could, but you'd only be harming yourself. I guess they missed that day when they taught the sensitivity training workshop for market vendors.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

One of the cultural differences I've become aware of between Yucatan and Midwest USA is the perspective of the people. In Midwest USA a person who is sensitive to the feelings of others and tries not to say or do things that others may find offensive is a "nice person." In Yucatan a person who is tolerant of others' insensitive behavior is a "nice person."

Some examples: In Midwest USA a nice person doesn't play his stereo too loudly if it bothers his neighbors. In Yucatan a nice person doesn't complain if his neighbors play their stereo too loudly. In Midwest USA in a supermarket a nice person moves his shopping cart out of the way so others can get by. In Yucatan a nice person doesn't get upset if someone parks his cart blocking the entire aisle and makes no effort to move it. In Midwest USA a nice person gives someone else space to pass by on the sidewalk. In Yucatan a nice person doesn't complain if someone forces him off the sidewalk and into the street to get past him. In Midwest USA a nice person who deals with others as part of his job (bank cashier, secretary, receptionist, etc.) puts the customer's/client's feelings first and ahead of personal stuff. In Yucatan a nice person is one who doesn't complain or get upset when a service person ignores him, speaks rudely to him, dallies with personal phone calls, or chats with co-workers.

There used to be these signs in various parts of the city -- I can't recall seeing them recently, although they might still be around -- put up by the city government, I think. They were directed towards visitors: foreigners and Mexicans from other parts of the country. I doubt that most Yucatecans saw it as such, but the message (paraphrased here) came across as quite abrasive: We're proud Yucatecans. We do things our own way. Don't attempt to change us. If you can't do it our way, then don't stay. That does seem to be the general view of most Yucatecans that I come into contact with.

So how does all this fit in with the original topic and some other comments on this thread? It fits in with the general Yucatecan perspective. We use those words here . . . words like gringo, moreno, negrito, gordito, flaco, gabacho, and chino, and if you are a nice person, you won't act like you're offended when we use them.

Note that I haven't said I agree or disagree with this perspective. I'm simply sharing some thoughts about things I've observed.

[Edited to get rid of double words. I seemed to have had a stuttering problem when I first typed this. ]

[moonraven]

I believe the bottom line is that wherever you go--if you look or act differently from the norm--you are probably going to be treated in a racist manner. This is because, as a species, we haven't evolved to the point where we accept and embrace difference.

Cultures still meet through violence. And some of our governments actively promote that style of interaction as being the only game in town.

[seanie]

Sensitivity Training Day for Market Vendors? Perhaps the presidentes municipales should look into it Anyway, I hope I didn't come across as Mr. PC. and I agree that if you are not prepared to deal with this sort of stuff you might as well stay home (where foreigners and nationals alike probably have to put up with "our" insensitivity too).... looks like there's no escape

Saludos,
SEAN

[counpk39]

From the AP:

MEXICO CITY, May 16 -- President Vicente Fox reversed course Monday night and apologized for saying that Mexicans in the United States do the work that blacks won't.

Fox repeatedly refused to back away from his Friday comment, saying his remark had been misinterpreted. But later, in telephone conversations with the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton the president said he "regretted" the statement.

"The president regretted any hurt feelings his statements may have caused," the Foreign Relations Department said in a press statement. "He expressed the great respect he and his administration has for the African-American community in the United States."

[thelmadatter]

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton never cease to amaze me. While I dont think Fox's statement was accurate, I find it fascinating how these two manage to intimidate people - what kind of pressure could they have put on Fox?

Kinda reminds me of the bruhaha some years ago when someone in the Japanese government said that they were the stronger nation because they didn't have to deal with all the problems of a multicultural society.

[counpk39]

I posted the story because race and racism seem to be strong factors in hiring. Although you may not agree that Jackson and Sharpton are taking part in the discussions with Fox, the implications of what the President said are discouraging to blacks who would like to teach there.

If we were to give the President a pass, then his ignorance and disregard could encourage employers to continue to discriminate against black and indigenous native-english speaking applicants.

[thelmadatter]

I have no problem with responding to Fox's remarks... but I strongly doubt that a mere response would cause Fox to apologize publically. Political pressure of some kind had to have been applied. What I wonder is what kind of pull Jackson and Sharpton have to get that kind of pressure applied.

Fox's remarks had nothing to do with discrimination in Mexico... it was a cheap shot aimed at the US, probably said cuz he is pissed over the whole Minuteman thing and it probably went over well with at least a good portion of the Mexican public.

I doubt Fox or just about anyone in the Mexican govt gives a thought about whether they are or they should hire English teachers of color.