Job Discussion Forums

laodeng · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 481

Talkdoc, this in no way represents a challenge by me, but if you can claim 98% attendance in what I presume are required English classes in a Chinese university, then you are in a unique, or close to unique, environment. If this is indeed the case, then I am not sure that your experience can be extrapolated to other environments.

laodeng · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 481

Or perhaps I am reading you wrong. None of your classes are required English classes?

Lee_Odden · Joined: 22 Apr 2004 Posts: 172

laodeng · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 481

Then come on out and congratulate talkdoc. I certainly would!

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

Sechelt · Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 35

Kev: simply put, no they don't care. Not in the slightest. As you have, no doubt, come to realise they care only about money and prestige. These are the primary reasons, the vast majoirty of private schools exist in China. They are businesses: run by business people, run for business people and run like businesses.
It's all about face. In China, it is rarely about what you actually know, but rather what it appears you know. It is also important for your children to at least appear well-educated. 'My daughter/son attends such and such school.' 's/he has x number of foreign teachers.' And, the big one: 's/he has high grades in all subjects.'
Most of the grades are false, of course. But, no one really cares. As you may have realised: grades are NOT determined by student achievement, or even by their teachers. No, grades are given by administrators more concerned with appeasing parents (and maintaining the parent's interest in sending their children to the school), than anything else.
Class attendence fits nicely into this scenario. If learning is not really the important point, why attend class at all? Why admonish children for not attending class? Why not arrange all kinds of activities so children need not attend class, in the first place? [Afterall, children's success in basketball matches/English Speach Contests is far more important than what some foreigner may teach them]
Last Fall, I took attendence, just fine. But, after the first month, I did little about missed classes (other than refusing to allow test re-writes, not accepting late assignments and the like- unless there was a d a m good, verifyable, reason for the absence/late arrival). Why? It's simple, really. The Dept. Head, the Asst. Dept. Head and other powers that be, would pay only lip service to stopping attendence problems. The same students would continue to be late, or simply not show up. Why, take attendence at all, you may ask? Simple: to cover my butt. While no one really cares about the little tics on the attendence sheets, they go nuts if you don't do them (as happended to one FT- he didn't see the need). Paperwork is what makes this country stay afloat- stamps and all.
When I talked with one of my (Chinese) colleagues about attendence and failing students who don't bother to show up, he told me a little story. The year before, a parent actually thanked my colleague for helping his son get into the HS (we were in the ESL Dept., where students of low/little language skill would spend a year upgrading their English [that was the theory, at least]). The strange part is: the teacher failed the student and recommended he not even return to ESL!
To sum up, freinds: no one really cares. Except for a few FT's. And, who cares about us?

laodeng · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 481

Talkdoc:

Never a thought of your tooting your own horn. But I am simultaneously astounded and filled with admiration, particularly that you can accomplish this with oral English classes.

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din! Kipling, Ballads and Barrack Room Ballads.[/b]

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

Not sure if you began the term or class with a hard set of rules, but if you get a new class in future, I strongly suggest this.

On the very first day of class, all students received a printed copy of my list of rules (don't be late to class, bring a pen or pencil, bring a notebook, no talking while others are talking, etc.). They were printed in English and in Chinese characters (translated into Chinese by my office liason). The #4 rule was about attendance. It stated that if the student was absent, they had to have a written note from the doctor (if they had to go to the school clinic) or from their headteacher (if they were missing for some other reason). Then it goes on to say that, since this note will be in Chinese, they must then take it to their Chinese English teacher for the translation. Everything should be signed and dated.

I explained this in detail in each class. Then I asked a higher level english-speaking student to translate for me (verbally) right after. All the head teachers and English teachers received a copy of my class rules as well. After the first couple of days (when students ALREADY started to disappear!), I sent an electronic memo out to the entire Senior department staff (with the Chinese translation by the same liason . . . wait a minute . . . naaaahhh!) explaining in even greater detail what I was wanting.

To date, I get students with no notes ("no note, no class" I tell them), notes written by the students themselves, APOLOGY notes from the students (not asking for apologies), notes in English written by the student and signed (I suppose) by their head teacher in Chinese, and still missing students. I have asked to have a meeting with the teachers of my department so we can discuss this problem, but I guess that is too difficult of a task to schedule - - don't know why. I'm about ready to give up on this as it is more trouble than it's worth.

I like Doc's idea of picking top students for a little social visit in my home. That would make a great reward system. I have about 300 students, so it may be a matter of picking names out of a hat as many of the students that DO come to class are of top quality.

Only 3 more days 'til the holiday . . .

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

"HARD SET RULES" - perfect! I second that!
But, in my view you are still TOO SOFT on them! Why does the silly teacher go to the trouble of writing rules and phtocopying them for his lazy learners???

I DICTATE THEM TO MY STUDENTS, so that they will never forget them! Also, I correct them and hand them back with comments!
That way, they will read them again and again!

What are they going to do with your copy?

That's right - throw it away!

Sechelt · Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 35

At the risk of repeating myself, no one gives a d a m. Kev. you have some great ideas, as do others. Dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Making other staff aware of your expectations. Asking for meetings with admin. and co-workers. Trouble is, you're taking a Western approach. This would work in almost every Western country (and many others)- in good schools. Here, schools don't function well. To name but one reason: Chinese are extremely individualistic. If there is no obvious advantage for them, they'll not get involved. This is the case, with this issue. Why should other teachers respect your class rules? It isn't their class. There is no benefit to other teachers/staff to help you with this issue.
Roger has an excellent point of having students write rules down themselves. Though, I would add: have it count for grades (make it part of the attendence portion- you must not only come to each class, on time, but also know the rules; perhaps apply it to the grade for the first month/semester). Otherwise, there's nothing in it for them.
Talk Doc's idea is so simple and valuable. I'll give that one a try, next time I'm at a university; and work out an alternative, for grade schools. Thanks for the idea, Doc.
Yes, I think it is time to let it go. After the holiday, come back with a fresh start/new outlook on the difficulties we all face. Hopefully, this will turn things around a bit and help you finish off you last year in China in relative peace (at least at the schoo! Wink

).

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

hesterprynne · Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 386

Couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery!

haha-gotta use that next time we hafta show up for a meeting where all the audiovisua technical equipment isn't prepared in advance

why should they show up when all they are paying for is a piece of paper?

I got the last laugh on one occasion with a school like that- they all passed, but 50 percent of the grade was attendance

surprise, sucka!!!

badtyndale · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 181 Location: In the tool shed

Quick answer to the title question - only about the money!

Herein, I feel, lies the inherent problem with the associated issues of attendance and motivation. It is quite clear from my experiences in Chinese schools that the vast majority of students are happy clinging on to the backs of their socially-clambering parents, feeding from their nouveau-riche security-teets.
Talkdoc is right to suggest that attendance records may be likened to baby-sitting. The point in attending university is to develop independent critical thought, and the burdens of motivation, time-management and academic awareness should be borne by the student. However, in a society that has relied on being 'taken care of' for so long, such notions are understandably alien (as reflected by the job-titles given to teachers from overseas).
Attendance records themselves cause issue only when acted upon - and it is true that they are becoming increasingly important in western universities in terms of course-credits and grades. Perhaps the difference here is that, at least in the UK universities I've worked in, the matter of attendance is processed without fuss.