Job Discussion Forums

[badtyndale]

All students struggle with studying to varying degrees. I'm not convinced that it is helpful to think about the case in point by referring to a concept that is itself vague, i.e. 'the most basics'. Perhaps a better way to look at the situation is to consider the frequency, and thereby the commonality, of errors. Cultural conventions and the linguistic structure of the learners' first language are important in helping to understand particular difficulties. A good benchmark for identifying progress, although subjective by nature, is observable confidence and self-reflexiveness - both in active and responsive communication.

[hhyy]

I still make quite a lot of 'the most basics'.

Anyways, I think it might be better to use a specific example.

Say this Chinese folk, Zhang, has just graduated from a pretty good university in Beijing and has been accepted by a North American University where he is gonna do some TA/RA jobs. Now he has 2 months left before he leaves Beijing. His English is reasonably understandable, just like many other university grads who are set for graduate school abroad. He is looking for some ESL courses on speaking English. The question is: in what area would you think he should spend more time?

I definitely know that everything consisting of the English language is important. However, in the above scenario, Zhang only has very limited time and thus a systematic long term study plan doesn't really suit his condistion.

My thought on this:

First, there is no need for him to spend too much time on idioms. There are quite a lot ESL books teaching idioms. (I mean a whole book dedicated to idioms) Personally, I think trying to memorize too many idioms is a completely waste of time for most students.

Secondly, I dont think the usual advanced ESL class in China is gonna help too much. I have been to one, where the FTs just chatted with us most of the time,without making any corrections. I sure got a change to speak quite a bit English, which I hadn't done much before, but after every class and when the whole course was done, I didn't feel that I learnt anything except a couple of slangs like "piss off". (I know improvement on a language is a very slow process and you can't feel it right away)I didnt think it was worth the time. Besides, Zhang is gonna get tons of chances to speak English after he gets to the US/Canada--for free.

[2 over lee]

hhyy wrote:

[Roger]

The Chinese students are struggling without having a clue as to what they need.
They don't learn to listen and to speak in English to each other. Why not?
Their English teachers don't talk to them in English - in my opinion, a serious problem of unprofessionalism!
So long as these kids "learn" under 'vacuum-like conditions they develop more rather than less resistance to this "foreign body" called English.

It would grteatly help if students were encouraged at an early age to develop INDIVIDUALLY rather than as members of an uniform class. The way I see it, students who do not piously acquire the same mistakes their CHinese English teachers are making are "out".
They learn conformity, conformity and more conformity.

[joe greene]

[joe greene]

[badtyndale]

There are serious cultural differences concerning educational approaches and methodologies that generate many of the problems experienced by both learners and FT's during their everyday experiences, as Roger notes. The example of a graduating student in the post of hhyy is illuminating in as much as it illustrates the inherent nature of some of these problems - perhaps the most obvious being an expectation that there is some 'holy grail' of an answer to the concerns raised.

[hhyy]

[hhyy]

[hhyy]

[Auntyjack]

The problem is that it�s very hard to jump from �advanced� or even �quite good� to genuine, competent fluency. There�s no 'one size fits all' at this level, either for teacher or student � it depends on student, teacher, situation etc.
I�m not here as a teacher in school, but with a travel company who deal with English speaking clients. Their situation is not the same as preparing to travel to an English speaking country, but there are similarities � so I�d thought I�d weigh in here.
They could be understood, so didn�t get corrected, mistakes were passed on and ingrained. They often tried out new words/phrases which might be just slightly off the mark, and the actual errors were all the things covered in earlier posts to this thread.
So � review and one on one feedback � or for you, find a decent teacher who will work methodically with YOUR mistakes, and talk about some of the cultural differences you�re going to hit, combined with watching English movies, read novels or magazines if you can get them, or surf English websites, anything for exposure to tune into the language � ie move past the rules. Good luck!
(and by the way, the folk I am working with are keen, bright, learn fast and seriously want to get it right �)

[Brian Caulfield]

I have only been in China 7 months but find the level of English good . Chinese love talking and are very curious people . So communication is easy.
I find the common method of pedagogy here is chorus work . Generally their pronunciation is good but they complain about having poor hearing. I also find because of their hearing problems they don't know appropriate language . For example: if I ask " What does your father do ?"
They might answer " I like to play computer games ."
I give my students dictations some times and they hate it . It is very hard for them to listen to the foriegn voice .
It is good to hear from the concerned Chinese English teacher . My experience here up till now has been you do your thing and we do ours . We don't really work together .

[hhyy]

The problem I wanted to address is that the pragmatic development lags far behind grammatical or vocabulary development.

[burnsie]

When it comes down to it you can tell a Chinese person who has studied or lived overseas vs a Chinese who has just learnt Chinese in the Chinese system. Fluency comes with immersion. It's the same for learning any language.

I think one of the fundamental mistakes comes from the ways the Chinese education system teaches Chinese students. Students are not encouraged to think. They are given what they need to think or do for the future. Language with it's endless possibilities of formation requires to think about sentence structure not memorisation of sentences and lots of words.

You find most students don't write down what they need as it's usually given to them. Students struggle to think clearly when given problems which requires numerous answers rather than one correct answer.

Because there is a high power authority given to teachers in China they are classed 'always right' and never question their information. Where in western society students are encouraged to find their own answers, think about their questions. Teachers are seen as a low level of power authority where students question teachers as equals.

Chinese students need to think for themselves and form their own answers from what teachers give them.

This is a generalisation of what I see and individuals levels can vary widely.

hhyy, you are looking for something that will bring your friend into the world through a systematic teaching of the english language. There is no way of doing this. Thinking and immersion is the key and the desire to become better and better.

By the way I think your english is excellent and great to have some Chinese posters here.

[badtyndale]