Job Discussion Forums

[Confederate]

No, it is not British Council I am talking about, this school has been under investigation for the last year almost, I first heard about British Council investigation last Nov.

There is another school here that has it's tail in a sling that they brought upon themselves. From what I have heard, most of the top management walked off their jobs along with a good number of teachers. I now teachers at this school on this forum, why they are not saying anything I can only guess, maybe they do not pay attention to what's going on or somethiing.

I have worked at several schools here in Moscow, Language Link,(or I should said I was led to believe I was working for LL) British International, Lingurex and a few of the smaller schools, the only question I was asked was if I had a TESL/TEFL certificate and that was it. Only a French owned school wanted me to have a CELTA and that was the only school. Of course if you want to make ESL teaching a career and go all around the world, then you really do need the best as far as education, experience and what not and having the CELTA will pay off. I am only interested in teaching here in Russia for a few years then going back home. Here in Russia, a teacher does not need a CELTA, schools here are starting to realize that just because a person has a fancy degree and a fancy certificate, it does not mean they can teach. Remember the college professor in college with a PHD, and he/she was boring as hell. Just because somebody has a TESL/TEFL/CETLA certificate does not mean they can teach, I would say that 75% of ESL teachers here do not have the personality to really be effective teachers. Of course though if you are thing of teaching as a career, in other countries, then having a CELTA could make the difference in getting the job or not getting the job. I know many teachers here and in the US, some are college grads, some have CELTA and some have not ever set foot into a college classroom. They learn to teach from experience, such as voluntary teaching Survival English to migrant farm workers in the US.

As far as freelance teaching, I do not know of anybody who completely freelance, even though it is very tempting. It pays to have one school you freelance with as backup. You can find clients the same way as in the US, spend an afternoon with a Moscow phonebook and making calls. If the school is interested in you they will ask you to email them your resume and will call you back after they look it over. From what I have seen, there are three requirments a teacher muct meet to get an interview, be a college grad., have some kind of TESL/TEFL certification, and have some teaching experience. I found freelance jobs by calling and emailing schools and translation companies. Students stopping class is a fact of life in thsi work, students all come and go. Just today I had a student stop having classes because she had a new shift at work and her job came first. But I also work as a freelance English translation edition for one of the oldest translation companies here from time to time. Just today, they sent me two articles that were translated to edit. At $1.50 per page, I have no problems with the extra money I make every other week with this company. Jobs will not come to you, you have to look for them just like in the US, use people you know, place ads in newspapers, contact various schools, tell them if they ever need a temp. teacher, you may be able to help, contact translation offices, most onlyl use software to do the translations and the translations are not very good. I get a lot of jobs because clients of this company want a native speaking English person from the US to do the editing, at least with the company I work for or so I'm told.

It is not easy starting out working freelance on your own, I know because I did it myself. But if you use your brains you can find work, good work that will more than provide for your needs here. It is kind of like one post I read where the poster said you can not find a good apartment for under $400 or $500 here, maybe if you want to live like Daddy Warbucks, but you can find a very nice apartment on the outskirts of Moscow for around $150.00 per month if you use your brain. I have a very nice three room apartment, kitchen, bedroom/livingroom, and bathroom, full furnished with telephone, cable TV and unlimited cable Internet access for a little over $120.00 per month. I do have to walk a quarter of mile to the main road to catch the bus, tram. trolly and public taxies. My apartment is next to a large park and woods, it has every thing I need or could want, no it is not fancy and I do from time to time have to make small repairs, but it beats the heck out of paying $400 or $500 per month for the same thing closer to the center of town.

Yes, having contacts pays off big time just like it does in the US. Knowing the right people always helps in more than one way. That is why I think it is best for a person to come here and work with a school first and then build up some contacts that will help when you need them. Then cut out after a year like most teachers do. But as far as these big schools paying a fair wage, you can pretty much forget that. One school I worked with paid me $15.00 per 45 minutes, $30.00 per 90 minute class, yet the same work done by a native Russian teacher was only paid half that, The native Russian teacher works just as hard, prepares just as long as the natvie English teacher does, yet is only paid half what the native English teacher does. From what I have seen native Russian English teachers are in very high demand here, especially for beginning English students, yet they are paid half what a native English teacher is paid. Is that fair? But when you freelance, you more or less are in business for yourself, along with all the risks and rewards. It never is easy starting a business, you have to be willing to take risks, but you also have to use common sense or your in for a big hurting. (Forgive the spelling mistakes, it has been a long day, just got home from class)
Georgia Confederate

[bobs12]

[steven_gerrard]

Well Confederate, seeing how the BC has only been under investigation by the tax department since May, I am sure they would be interested to know of the information you had back last November!

If you want to live in the outskirts of Moscow and spend a significant part of your day travelling to and from work then possibly you can find somewhere for $150-$200 but we are talking 1 room, very basic and a fair way from any metro station. Personally, I can't think of anything worse than finishing your day at 9 or 9:30pm then having to haul your tired bod back to the boonies via packed metro and then bus or minivan, only to have to get up 8 hours later to do the journey again, this time with 10 times as many fellow commuters, for your morning class in the centre of the city.

I agree that there are many so-called teachers here who are in completely the wrong profession but no more than any other big city in the world. I just think that if you have a CELTA or TESOL cert, you pretty much already know if you are suited to the job before you start. When I was DOS at at large school here in Moscow, we had some great teachers and some very poor ones. Some arrived qualified, others not but for nearly all this was their first job in EFL. I have to say I never came across any qualified teachers who were "beyond" saving when if they encountered problems, and in my three years there, I can't think of a single one who dropped out in the middle of their contracts, other than for personal reasons or to take another job. But there were plenty of unqualified teachers who left (often without any notice whatsoever) beacuse it was too much like hard work and not the extension of the frat-house they thought it was going to be, finding out that it was impossible to drink 10 pints a night and still deliver any sort of lesson at all, never mind a quality one or who just freaked out when faced with a class-it is actually quite a responsibilty to teach English to fee-paying adults who expect something in return for their money.

However, there are a lot of highly qualified, very experienced teachers who stick around, mainly due to the fact that you can earn the EFL big bucks here in Moscow, one of the few places you can. I know of a fair few teachers here who operate freelance and they do very well out of it. I was just pointing out that if you're new to the profession and you want to come to Moscow, it makes sense to do it on a contract with a large school. And while I would recommend a CELTA or equiv, it isn't necessary if you want to get a job, true enough. But if you want to earn a living wage and live somewhere fairly decent (not with Kremlin views, just on a metro line somewhere) and certainly if you want to think about going freelance at some point- get a cert.

[bobs12]

Fair point, but I stand my ground. I've literally dragged one of the English equivalents of a CELTA-qualified frat boy from his classroom as he was too drunk to even write on the board. He was teaching kids around the age of nine. And I have to ask- why the hell do schools give work to these idiots?

It shouldn't be a matter of:

[steven_gerrard]

Doing a CELTA does not make you a teacher- I fully agree. But it does give you a chance to see what you might be expected of you when you actually get into the classroom, giving those who are not suited to teaching or who thought it might be an easy way to travel the chance to bail out BEFORE they start a job. I believe THAT is the main advantage of a CELTA and gives recruiters for schools and idea that this applicant probably has a least of modicum of dedication to the job.

It IS difficult to recruit decent teachers for Moscow, more so now than ever. That is why schools like Language Link, who need upwards of a hundred NEW teachers every September, started programmes like the intership. Much as they would like to throw the interns straight into the classroom without any training at all (why waste three weeks training the buggers when they could be out there earning the school money?) even LL see that it is not feasible to send someone who is completely inexperienced into a classroom, however much they would like to.
Moscow has a huge shortage of teachers, qualified or not, and that is why the frat-boys, prima donna american princesses and total wasters last so long. Much as the big schools would like to be a lot more choosy, in the curent climate they just can't afford to be.

[Confederate]

I saw that British Council was being investigated for taxes on tha Russian News service web page back in Nov. http://www.newsru.com/ and wondered why nobody mentioned it here on this form because several Russian news services reported it.

Yes, living on the outskirts of Moscow does require more travel time, around two hours extra, but consider the money you save in rent does make up for the walks you take, though I do wonder about that in winter slipping on ice.

I think Mr. Gerrard would be the first to admit as a former DOS that sometimes a lot of these schools make the mistake of thinking that an English teacher is qualified to teach Business English and Business courses, they are not in most cases. Just ask most English teachers what practice of law means or what dog and pony show means. Most of these schools here think because a teacher can teach English, they can teach any thing, and just is not so. I have taught many Business classes where my clients could not believe the teachers that some of these schools had sent them in the past. I guess good native English teachers are far and few between and those with an education and experience in business are even more rare.

I remember one school I applied at when I first got here, I saw some of the native English teachers they had, and they were dressed in sandals, t-shirts, and jeans that were more holes than jeans. Sorry to say that this school used the name of America in it's name. This school has made just about everybody in Moscow mad by mass mailing spam email from what I have seen on a Russian web page here where Russians discuss the various English schools here, very interesting web page to see what Russians really think of schools here. But I think Mr. Gerrard would agree that competition among schools here is stiff, yet just about every school acts as if it isn't. Instead of improving themselves, offering courses that Russians want and need, they keep on going as if they are the only game in town AND THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN!, yet too many do not find that fact out until it is too late. Part of the problem is that these schools appoint teachers into positions of management that these teachers are not really qualified for. They should be appointing people into management positions who have business experience and know something about Russian business. These schools instead of trying to keep good experienced teachers, they more or less choose to run them through a treadmill, keep them a year and then get rid of them. I can only say that the way business is done here, is something crazy compared to how business is done in the US. I have learned that there are more than one way of doing business since coming here.

Georgia Confederate

[bobs12]

I'm the first to agree that not just anyone can be a teacher, but the CELTA as a pricey CV embellishment is a good investment for a frat-boy or little miss piggy to come again and again and again- the CELTA course doesn't weed out the scum, as far as I've seen.

I agree fully with the statements you both made there- yes, some people just don't understand the workload for a teacher when he's doing his job properly (would somebody mind emailing my начальство about that one, as they haven't even a faint clue) and realise that it's not the working holiday they expected. Those people should stay well away from professional teaching until they know what it's about and are ready to get into it.

For tourist teachers, looking for some kind of paid holiday, or just a way to meet people as they travel- what's the harm? BKC won't let them in anyway... unless they happen to have a CELTA... see where I'm going? It doesn't guarantee anything, other than that the person was willing to dish out a lot of money for a certificate.

Tourist teaching for some is a great experience and a great way to travel, and I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of that pleasure, I would just ask them always to be considerate toward the kids and the parents who are funding their jaunts. Without these here-today-gone-tomorrow sorts, the big schools would have a lot more trouble filling their staff quotas.

As for the more bog-standard classroom-bound teachers- I have nothing against the types who try hard but can't hack the pace, certified or not. It's hard work and a damn hard way to make a living. But I would recommend that unless they seriously want work and not just a holiday with benefits and a chance to sleep their way round a Russian city, they should stay away for their own good, if no-one else's, as they spoil the game for the rest of us.

For the daddy's-credit-card-will-handle-it brigade, push them all off a cliff in a burning жигули.

I must say I have little sympathy for the schools who find it difficult to recruit- if they treated their teachers better, they might have more loyalty and less need for continued recruitment. Personally, I'd like to see all the schools that mistreat their staff go bust, if not out of spite then just as punishment for having such bad business sense. Survival of the fittest- let the bad schools get the bad teachers, and may they all go down in flames (or up in smoke- curious) together.

The better schools will survive, and those will be the (probably much smaller) ones that are owned and set up by real teachers and educators that are not profit-driven and take more interest in their teachers than whether mister Kalashnikov wants business English on a friday night at 11pm when poor Steve should be at home with his girlfriend. Man, there should be a comma in there somewhere... Running schools like McDonalds outlets is just silly- profit profit profit.

[waxwing]

I apologise for not using the quote function, but bobs, it seems to me that there is a flaw in your logic. You say, in both this and another thread, that it's ridiculous to consider that a 5 week CELTA/Trinity TESOL course can teach you how to teach English; and on that basis you reject them.
(I paraphrase, apologies, but that seems to be the gist).

But I think you are neglecting the possibility that a course like that can prove that you already have the ability to teach English (along with smoothing the rough edges of your technique and giving you ideas for further personal development).

It is for precisely this reason that, if I were a DOS somewhere I would seriously consider limiting my hiring to a subset of those with CELTA/TESOL or higher.

In mathematical terms this is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

PS I think it's actually quite tough to pass those courses. They are externally moderated by Cambride/Trinity College respectively. Of course, the certificates can be forged ...

PPS To all those who continually write 'CELTA' as if it's the only one, please don't forget the Trinity TESOL (which I have..) .. it is nearly identical and given equal weight by the British Council.

[bobs12]

I see what you're getting at, but I think the 'prove you can already teach' value is a touch diminished by the frat-boy factor, нет? There's no reason someone who can already teach and would like to move to another school without taking references shouldn't get a CELTA if they can afford to take so much time off and pay for the crtificate, but if they can't teach already, how can they expect to roll straight off the production line as a 'proper' teacher? It's a lot of money for someone who can already teach.

I'm hiring right now and I'll base my choices on a university degree, correspondence and an extensive interview with some bloody tough questions. If somebody applies with a CELTA, I'm afraid the first word that will come to mind is 'amateur' sorry guys, but I think the CELTA can be seen more as an upper limit than a guaranteed minimum when you look at some of the scum that crawl out of training centres and bear in mind that there is no lower qualification with any real recognition. You can see marks on the floors between classroms where some of them have been dragging their knuckles.

[waxwing]

[Confederate]

I agree with both Bobs12 and Waxwing, but I have seen so many of these kids with fancy certificates that really do not have the slightest idea of what they are doing. A lot think they are so cool be cause they have a expensive fancy certificate. Some of the best English teachers I have seen here are native Russians who have no certificate at all, some are still attending college and they could pass as Native English Speakers if they choose to. Their English grammar is not perfect, but whose is? Many times I have to look up a grammar rule myself.

It is like saying because somebody has a medical degree they are a good doctor, or because somebody has a PHD, they can automatically teach. I have completed six years of college, but some of the best teachers I have known never set foot into a college classroom. Just because somebody has a CELTA or TESOL ect� does not mean they have the personality to be able to reach their students and become their friend. You have to be able to reach your students, win their trust and confidence, if you can not, they will not attend class and you�ll be hitting the road. No school is going to keep a teacher nobody wants as a teacher.

Just like Bobs12 said, most of these schools if not all of them over rate their students. I once went to a class that the school rated as pre-intermediate, but in reality was only a beginner�s class. They did not know the English alphabet or simple English words like hello, goodbye, ect� I had pre-intermediate textbooks for these students and they could not even read English. How can a school justify this? I just can not understand how schools like this stay in business. I now give all my students a test myself of their English abilities, I no longer trust these school evaluations.

Bobs12, I will try and find that link for you this weekend, I had to buy a new computer and lost all my links. This was a discussion forum where Russians talked about their experiences with different schools here. It is in Russian, but it was an interesting forum. I do not know if that school is still in business, but nobody liked all the spam this school was sending out. I remember I applied for a job at this school and had to take a grammar test, a Russian gave it to me and she tried to tell me you use the article an with university. An university she tried to tell me was right
So I showed her an English textbook I had that said different. She got mad and walked out, so I was looking for web pages about this school and found that forum. It was a pretty interesting web page, I found it last Dec. It is funny how most of these schools operate.

But these schools made their beds and now they have to sleep in them.

Georgia Confederate

[bobs12]

CG... respect. It took me a lot longer to get my head round the school situation in Russia.

[waxwing]

err, I hate to correct you on this one, but four-week

I understand your perspective.
Hey if you're still looking next year, I might be up for it
But if Putin starts doing a Lukashenko, I think everyone should scarper.

[steven_gerrard]

What exactly is Business English anyway?

When I was at Language Link we had a huge Corporate Client dept (perhaps a lot bigger than any of us realised at the time but that is a whole different story!) but most of those students wanted general English so what we actually had was really in-company English, rather than so-called Business English.

[alekto]

[quote="steven_gerrard"]The "school" he is talking about is probably The British Council, which has a medium sized teaching centre as part of its operation in Moscow. They are currently being assessed for tax liability (they now operate as a charity in Russia) and although the Russian government is indeed unpredictable, they would have to have some balls to close down part of the British Embassy. Russia would be creating a very isolated position for itself on the world stage if it did so, but we all know Russian Bureacrats are mad, so who knows? I don't think anyone is unduly worried, though, as all the teachers there are on very good contracts which cover this eventuality. [/quote]

I'd like to offer a correction there.

Firstly, yes, there is a chance that the Council could be closed down, although realistically the Russian Government is unlikely to take such a drastic step. Nonetheless, you never know.

*BUT* while contract teachers will be fine if the worst comes to the worst (they get 2 months pay and repatriation), hourly-paids, such as myself, are basically left in the lurch. And there are a fair few hourly-paids at the Council.

So I'm hoping they stay open...at least while I'm still in the country