Job Discussion Forums

[Stephen Jones]

[leeroy]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Do the FBI..."?

I mean, "the FBI" implies a plural, right?

OK, time for bed...

[moonraven]

A field day is not making hundreds of millions of dollars because of it. Not in my book, anyway.

[moonraven]

Destroying a US ship in Guatanamo Bay would have been a replay of when they blew up the Maine in La Habana harbor and blamed it on Spain, enabling them to declare war and grab the Philippines, Puerto Rico, etc.

[thelmadatter]

Contolled demolision? I dont buy it. First of all, OBL knew the about the attacks and listened to the news to watch it all unfold. Second, if you look at videos of controlled demolistions, small charges go off just about all over the building, with the goal of collapsing inwards. If you look at the collapse of the two towers, both collapses begin about the level the planes struck and the momentum of the top stories falling took out the rest of the building. OBL himself had hoped the strikes would cause the collapse of the upper floors but what happened went beyond his wildest dreams. For Bush and Co to have a hand in it, they would have had to know about the attacks and then time the charges pretty damn well and then within the building. No police or firefighters reported any kind of a series of charges that would indicate a controlled demolision.

Bush is not benefitting from this as he hoped. He really thought he had complete carte blanche after 9/11, and the fact that he is defending his war in Iraq give me at least some hope for the American people. Im not Bush fan - I just really doubt Bush and Co. are anywhere near that capable.

[moonraven]

Capable of what? We are not talking nuclear physics here. We are talking not much above the level of Wile E. Coyote and his Acme gadgets.

[Seth]

for the real conspiracy theories go to the al jazeera website and read some of the discussion forums there. basically the jews do everything from 911 to bad breath.

conspiracy theories are nothing but projections based on ones own weird viewpoints. don't try to argue reason or facts with conspiracy theorists, as you're not debating facts and figures but are debating their core idiosyncracies and prejudices which you can't change. you can show them proof positive that it's not true and they'll only say 'that's what they WANT you to think' or it's counterfeit or some such nonsense. of course there's no proof that the bush administration orchestrated 911, it's a theory based on faith. they also think they're special and can see past the curtain of deceit that the rest of us poor commoners can't fathom, as we've been bought by the military-industrial complex and the freemasons.

it's also due to the fact that most conspiracy theorists have views a lot different than what reasonable people hold. when they come across something that doesn't fit into their highly regimented and inflexible paradigm they try to make it fit by turning it into a conspiracy of powerful players who can make the unlikely come true. it can't be proven, of course, because they're ultra powerful evil government figures and can hide the facts. but it can't be disproven, either. it's like trying to disprove invisible pink unicorns.

[AsiaTraveller]

leeroy,

In American English usage, "FBI" is singular (like all other government bodies, as well as organizations, academic faculties and even sport teams). This is one of the significant differences between American English and most other varieties.

[Kurochan]

[Stephen Jones]

A Google for 'notional agreement' will explain this clearly.

Does the FBI......
would suggest we are talking about official policy (the FBI being seen as a monolithic entity).
Do the FBI .....
would be talking about the agents in the FBI individually.

Obviously the use of the singular lends itself to the more extreme conspiracy theories.

[AsiaTraveller]

Sorry, but Americans use FBI as singular (not plural), in speech as well as in writing.

*************
FBI is searching library records for terror leads
By Christopher Newton
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - The FBI is visiting libraries nationwide and checking the reading records of people it suspects of having ties to terrorists or plotting an attack, library officials say.
*************

Does the FBI investigate itself?
Do FBI agents investigate themselves?

*Do the FBI investigate themselves?

Stephen, your latter example with "do" is completely un-American. Perhaps it might be written in the British or Australian press. The same treatment is given to the words goverment, Congress, Senate, family and ESL department. The word police, however, takes plural verbs.

You can argue against American English usage all you like. But it remains stubbornly unlike British English on this particular issue!

Here's one source:

"In American English there still is a strong tendency to use the singular verb inflection with a collective noun subject. In British English plural inflections are frequently preferred:

(Am. E.)
My family is on vacation.
The government is cheating us.

(Br. E.)
My family are on holiday.
The government are cheating us.

Some collective nouns (i.e., the police, and those formed from adjectives that describe people: the rich, the young, the privileged) require a plural verb."

--Celce-Murcia, M., and Larsen-Freeman, D., The Grammar Book: An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course, Second Edition.

[Stephen Jones]

So in Am E 'government' is always singular and 'police' can take either verb.

The question then is whether FBI are government or police? :)

I did a poll of one with my office mate (black, Washington DC) and he reckoned he would quite likely use the plural.

But maybe that is because he would be more likely to see the Feds hanging around the hood than you would :)

I don't really see how you can use a singular verb in the sentence below:
I've called the FBI and they're coming right away.

Incidentally, Ludwig raises an interesting point about 'army'. You can use the word army to refer to a particular collection of soldiers as well as the institution, which explains why you have the Fifth Army but not the Fifth Police.

[Stephen Jones]

A Google search for "FBI are" (remember to put within quotes) will return many examples of the plural in American usage, including the link below especially for the conspiracy theorists on this thread.
http://users.chartertn.net/tonytemplin/FBI_eyes/

[AsiaTraveller]

Stephen, I'm talking about only subject-verb agreement. The use of plural possessives (such as their) with singular antecedents is another topic entirely--and currently a rich topic of debate among American usage experts and editors. The usage you quote is becoming increasingly acceptable (after decades of frowns from teachers); and this is cyclical, as any good usage reference will show us examples of alternative uses from centuries past.

[I did the Google searches last night. The huge majority of American usage examples favor the singular "FBI is..."]

As for police, the term to me (a native American English speaker but, alas, no longer an American citizen) refers to the police officers rather than to a single collective unit. Americans use police department or police force to refer to the actual government unit. Hence "the police are..." but "the police force is..."

Here's an interesting instruction from a recent manual/reference for American copy editors:

"When the plural sounds unnatural, the sentence should be revised:

Awkward: The orchestra are tuning their instruments.
Preferable: The members of the orchestra are tuning their instruments.

And this is precisely what we see in standard journalism (print and broadcast) as well as nonfiction publishing.

Americans will add a noun (members, agents) so that the original collective noun functions as an adjective:

The FBI is going house to house to search for terrorist radical right-wing Republicans.
*The FBI are going house to house...
The FBI agents are going house to house...

And the following:

The history faculty is moving to another set of offices today.
*The history faculty are moving to another set of offices today.
The history faculty members are moving to another set of offices today.
[faculty members is the defacto plural standard in the U.S. So is staff members.]

And of course in sport (or, in the U.S., 'sports'):

I hope that Boston does indeed defeat New York today.
*I hope that Boston do indeed defeat New York today.
I hope that the Boston pitchers do considerably better today at Fenway Park.

In the U.K., of course, one would say the following:

I hope that Chelsea defeat Arsenal today.
*I hope that Chelsea defeats Arsenal today.

[poro]

LOL

You are teaching me what I knew all along - English is chaos, and we are helping to spread the chaos