Job Discussion Forums

[Hamish]

This is the wrong time, if any is ever proper, for us to insult each other over our disagreements. I would like to apologize if any of my remarks here have done so. It is never my intent, in the context of this discussion, to demean or insult anyone. I am just trying to clearly state that, in my view, there is no current information that justifies dramatic concern. Further, it seems exactly the wrong time for any of us to rush to publish anything other than the most responsibly checked and authoritative data.

If we hear a rumor, I think we should publish it with that label, or not at all.

At the moment, our campus is being sealed. No person may enter the grounds unless they are established members of the �family,� and wearing badges to prove their status. A series of lose brick walls is being built throughout the campus to separate faculty housing from that of students. I have no understanding of how this last is expected to help with anything, but it is here.

Baodingers are wearing masks and staying out of the markets. We were just out buying supplies for the weekend and found the stores nearly empty. THAT was not a bad thing so far as we were concerned.

The store�s shelves seemed well stocked with everything one could want, and, as is usual, equally well stocked with a mountain of stuff we did not want.

There is a young man from one of my classes who has come down with a fever of about 39 C and has difficulty breathing. THAT could be the news we have been dreading but one must be reluctant to so conclude. To contract the disease he would have had to have direct contact with someone who has SARS. Given the difficulty that all of our students have with the price of a ticket to Beijing, and the fact that such travel has been discouraged for weeks, his having such contact is unlikely.

In the face of such an unlikely threat, the school is making a great show of doing something, even if it is wrong. I having been telling people that the same bugs that were here before SARS are still here to plague us and we should not leap to any conclusions about the nature of this young man�s malady, but to no avail.

Truly this episode is something to write home about.

Best wishes to everyone.

Wash your hands before you pick your nose.

[Roger]

The initial complacency is slowly giving way to more sombre thoughtfulness. Is it the harbinger of the next panic buying spree (this time cigarettes, perhaps?).
The second phase of the Canton Trade Fair seems to have seen more visitors than the first one (which I attended, and attending it noticed that I was almost the only foreign visitor and thus being showered with attention never before experienced!).
Our estate is a kind of dormitory town. Half of the residents are away, many in Hong Kong. It is eerily quiet, except for the croaking of the bullfrogs and the noisy chatter of two watchmen below my window.
Those facial masks... First it was three people on a bus. Then half of the busload. Now everybody (except myself). Speaking and listening to someone are seriously impeded activities. Nevertheless, I have learnt the Chinese term for this new disease: FEIDIAN.
Fewer people travel now for non-essential business.
Two expats told me they were going to visit Sichuan during the May holidays. No problem buying tickets.
I must go to Hong Kong. What if something beeps when I pass through the thermo detector? Will I be held incommunicado, and at whose expense, at Huanggang or Lok Ma Chau?

[Hamish]

Good news!

The young man I mentioned above has recovered, and now has a normal temperature.

Regards,

[chinasyndrome]

[quote="Writerman"]

[gerard]

It was hinted to me that it would be "OK" if I went home. Funny there are no cases in my city of 800,000. Nobody wears a mask although downtown is pretty barren. My view is well if they want to but out my contract...money talks... If not be quiet.

As I write I see that all cinemas and bars are being shut down in PRC. And 6 more have apparently died in Toronto. Still the death toll here is 122. Out of...I have mixed feelings. I dont want to make light of it but at the same time cant help thinking of the war,... There is always a "hangover" after a big media event and they need to latch on to something.

[hubei_canuk]

[Hamish]

Our President asked me to stop by his office. There, he told me that we are not bound by our contract and, should we want to do so, we can go home anytime, at school expense, and return the same way when the SARS problem is over.

I told him we had no intention of leaving, and that he would have to order us to leave. We had a good laugh about that.

I also told him to quit smoking.

This is a wonderful place, and I am sorry to see so many people reporting that they have a difficult situation to deal with.

I am beginning to believe that the best situation to be found for FT is in a small school where one is among a community rather than a large, or commercial, place where motivations are likely to be different.

[chinasyndrome]

You're welcome, hubei_canuk.

If I can just add this thought. Map the whole policy and procedure out in your own mind and on paper first. I gave them a set of logical steps to follow, and the whole process went incredibly smoothly and quickly. No dissention, no interminable meetings that go round in circles. If you have a translator, get them to write it down first in Chinese and then translate it back to you step by step, so there can be no misunderstandings when you get to the meeting.

I've found that they are really looking for some leadership and advice on what to do, and in the last few days I've been called by another school to help them make their policy.

Okay, we b**** long and loud about them, makes jokes at their expense, etc, but at the end of the day they have little or no experience in how to handle important things like 'issues or crisis management'. What an opportunity for us to open up really meaningful dialogue with them, which can lead to more dialogue on other subjects.

Often, the Chinese 'show' their panic by not showing anything. If we fuel theirs with ours, and wind it up with open anger, they're going to be even more scared to share 'bad news' with us. Hope this helps.

[arioch36]

Dear Once Again,

So you know, I do think every disease is a serious thing. I think the perspective has been totally lost, though. This makes for dangerous medicine, and faulty thinking whcih can hurt many people. I don't have the link, but,

"Dr. Arthur Chern, of Singapore's Health Ministry, said ribavirin does not alter the course of the disease and only some patients seem to benefit from steroids.

Speaking to the seminar by videoconference, Dr. Donald Low of Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto questioned whether ribavirin might also be harming SARS patients and said he may stop administering the drug. "




In henan, thousands are always dying from other diseases. Certainly many other flu/pneumonias etc. from China, have killed more people in the states. No one looks at the real problems... the real current health system in China for most Chinese at most hospitals, which do not practice proper isolation procedures or proper hygenic measures (uh, surprise surprise, I have heard that hospitals in henan will still reuse needles!!!)

When the media circus becomes involved, and governmental agencies such as health agencies get the adreniline rush of an "epidemic", truth and reason are thrown out. Once a governmental agency feels power, they never want to relinquish it. Nature of the beast. Honestly, if I was to get SARS, I wouldn't let them stick anything into my body without knowing exactly what it was, and the proof it was effective.

Seriously folks, check out in recent history, the medical establishment's treatment for diseases in a crisis situation;
I'm not talking about bloodletting, but modern, 20th century stuff.

SARS reminds me of the "SMONS" problem in Japan in the 50's that the medical comunity doesn't like to talk about. Mercury treatment for syphillis anyone? 1970's war on cancer? Fortunately chemotherapy has advanced a lot, but back then you would die a lot sooner with chemotherapy. Worse, was a drug used to treat cancer that was discontinued because the FDA was about to ban it because it killed too many healthy and sick people...now under the name of......AZT, making Welcome-Burroughs a lot of money (Fortunately, doctors are now using it less and less, and patients are living longer and longer)

The list goes ever on, indiscriminate use of miracle antibiotics resulting in 25 % of pnuemonias in NYC arte untreatable.

And these people wearing the masks all day... DON"T THEY KNOW THEY ARE PUTTING THEMSELVES AT HIGHER RISK??? Masks are only effective as short term isolation to protect you from a sick patient, then the mask must be disposed of.

[chinasyndrome]

[quote="arioch36"]

[arioch36]

Mr Syndrome,

I didn't see the other side. Of course, you are right, if everybody but me wears a mask, I'll be safer And foolish me, with the mask on they can't spit everywhere, or fling their nostril contents on you I guess i am just made because I didn't buy stock

The problem with the 6 deaths in Toronto...what is SARS? If you say that SARS is a pnuemonia caused by a new strain of the corona virus, then it seems probable that the SARS in Toronto is not SARS. They are now reporting that the 40% of their SARS patients did not have the corona strain (we all have corona viruses in us). Remember , the identification for a new strain of corona virus as the culprit was made by the scientist of the Beijing government, who was under great pressure to announce an asnwer. The Beijing government that many of you don't trust. The burning body governmnet. Why is everyone so quick to accept it.
America has also announced the same thing, that many of the supposed SARS patients did not have the new strain of the virus or the antibodies

[chinasyndrome]

Rumour has it that today on this thread a new level of cooperation appears to have spontaneously appeared. If this is so, and continues to be so, then perhaps a significant breakthrough in the 'communication' of SARS has occurred.

Folks, I'm not meaning to pontificate (honestly) but often this forum leaves a lot to be desired. Like a drug, it hooks you; like a drug, it has unwanted side effects.

Can we stand back from all the b******* for a minute? Let's look at the reaction SARS is causing TO us and not just around us.

At first there were small rumours that few if any took seriously. Then it escalated and we went hunting for info. Speculation became 'information' and the slugfest began. Armaggeddon isn't here yet; neither can we claim that we're safe. In the last week panic has set in, AND WE ARE NOT IMMUNE TO IT. This is cause for more s*** to be slung BECAUSE OUR INDIVIDUAL SITUATIONS GIVE US DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES! Different, not wrong.

If we look at history it tells us that our reactions are predictable. Too much or not enough of the right or wrong kind of information leads to panic. But where are we now and more importantly, where do we want to be?

We don't know where this SARS thing is going or the ramifications it has for and on us. So where are we now and what comes next? After the war comes the looting. After the looting comes cooperation. The guy who stole from your bombed-out house yesterday is now the guy who's standing shoulder-to-shoulder with you, helping to dig your family out. Human nature.

So again, let's look at it from a status viewpoint: what have we got that's good and where do we go from here?

We can't rely on our Chinese masters or friends to really help much, because their culture (shell-shocked by the leftovers of the Revolution) means that they learned to hide things if they wanted to survive. 'Face' is also a strong element. If we can't rely on them, what can we do? Our fall-back position is to rely on ourselves and each other.

Let's calmly and rationally start the work on getting the policies right wherever we can. That won't always work because nothing always works, but we have to go with what we've got.

Leadership is required at our individual levels. Those of us who can should step up to the mark. Those of us who can't should be supported with ideas and help that perhaps they can pass on.

In the absence of experience with foreigners and in any management style we've ever seen, the Chinese we deal with daily are more lost than us. At least we've got passports.

In this whole issue so far we've been scrabbling for info (rightly) but what positive steps can we take to help?

Last night, just to lighten the mood, I invented a game called 'SARS WARS', where participants have to come up with wildly funny or crazy scenarios for what comes next and what comes last.

Here's a sobering thought. One of the players envisioned a time when foreigners and Chinese began physically fighting each other over 'who infected whom'. This became common as panic and recriminations spread. Finally, the government ordered all foreigners out of the country 'for their own safety'. Those of us with Chinese partners and children had to go, leaving our families behind because all applications were either canceled or offices and waiting lists were overflowing.

It stopped being funny then. I'm not leaving my wife and family. That's always been my standpoint. But what if I lose that choice? I could panic about the unknowable or I can think it through rationally. I'll take my brand of rational.

The point, which I kind of strayed away from, is 'where are we now and what comes next'? More panic or a new order of thinking and cooperation? We get to choose.

SARS is not a big thing in Shantou so far, but I'm preparing for the day when it is, if you know what I mean. I'm getting the ideas and policies out and will refine them as much as I can. I think I'm right but I don't know I'm right. I've talked to the foreign faculty here but I'm already a long way ahead in my thinking and they've got nothing to add. Some of you guys are good, clear thinkers with great ideas and insights I wouldn't have thought of.

What do you think and where are you heading with this? Got anything useful? I'll share everything I've got if you're genuinely interested. Just PM me. I'll put a word attachment together this week. Can't see the point in waiting until SARS comes creeping across the lawn.

Hope you, yours and all around you are safe and continue to be so.

Cheers,

Les Harrison
Shantou

[chinasyndrome]

[quote="arioch36"]

[hubei_canuk]

"I must go to Hong Kong. What if something beeps when I pass through the thermo detector? Will I be held incommunicado, and at whose expense, at Huanggang or Lok Ma Chau?" - Roger
-------------------------------------------
Roger...Is that Huanggang, Hubei Province?
Reliable rumour has it that Hunaggang and Zhanghe in Hubei Province have SARS. The principals were informed by the provincial governments.Probably other officals were informed but it's a one way process. No one will commmit to who told them.

[Roger]

Huanggang, part of Futian district in Shenzhen, Guangdong, not Hubei, a far cry!

In today's SCMP:
"The Ditan hospital (in Peking) has released its AIDS patients to make room for the ever increasing number of SARS-afflicted. The relatives of the AIDS patients were complaining that they would not get adequate care and medication while at home..."