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[martinphipps]

[martinphipps]

Just a quick comment. I've noticed that when people speak Mandarin to foreigners here that they are speaking slower and more clearly than when they are speaking to each other. If nothing else, this suggests to me that they do think they are trying to be polite.

I realise that we're talking about situations where people are speaking Chinese to Chinese people. I haven't misread anything. But it is also understandable that people who don't speak English very well might avoid situations where they might be expected to speak English.

Martin

[m o n k]

[TaoyuanSteve]

[Taylor]

As for the waitress saying "Very hot!" in English, it is possible that she was unable to say much more than that!!! As we all know, many people can study English for years in Taiwan and still be unable to use the language for any practical purpose.

I see two extremes here....some people are going to show-off by using their English ability. Others are going to be freaked-out by the concept of anyone having second-language, mulit-cultural abilities.

Can you imagine if some tall black guy appeared at an open-air market one morning speaking fluent Taiwanese to all of the vendors??? It would cause an uproar!!! We are language teachers who are already living in a totally different culture. Of course, the things we are "aware of" and "sensitive to" will be different from the "average" person in Taiwan.

As I mentioned in my first response, there are three levels to consider: 1. One can gain face....2.one can avoid losing face....and 3. one can lose face. Is there face to be gained for speaking English? Probably so. That concept is what keeps us employed. I'm all for it!

My only suggestion is: If you are going to speak Chinese, speak it like you mean it! It's like wearing a cowboy hat. Don't half-way stick a Stetson on the back of your head and grin at everyone as you walk around! Pull it down and act like you mean business! Sorry, I've been back in Texas too long. See ya'll in January!

Taylor
Texas/Kaohsiung

[m o n k]

[TaoyuanSteve]

Monk, the situation you describe mirrors mine almost exactly. I almost wonder if it was the same waitress in the same restaurant.

I see what Taylor is talking about re: the racial aspect of it. I definitely think that plays a role as well. Older or less educated people tend to behave in the manner experienced by Monk and myself more often than younger. Though this isn't always the case. On the very same night I had the strange language lock-up experience, we went to a shaved ice dessert stand for dessert. The laoban's grandmother came up to me and, without asking if I could speak Mandarin, began asking me a flury of questions. She seemed to have absolutely no trouble understanding me nor any issues with talking to a foreigner.

I like the cowboy hat metaphor. When I speak kind of timidly and tentatively, as if I'm not sure I will be understood, that is when people more often don't understand me. When I speak quickly, assertively and without hesitation it seems to knock the person I'm adressing into gear somehow and I have fewer lock-ups.

Still, though, those avoidance scenarios are weird.

[m o n k]

[Taylor]

Dear Monk,

I appreciate your most recent post...with the 2a, 2b, etc. I am a very "linear" thinker, so the flow-chart analysis was helpful for me to better understand your experiences. However, even if we can make reasonable predictions such as yours, we must still consider the setting and "who" is watching....right?

I doubt that "pride" in the school system is to blame. My wife and I are both in our early-to-mid 30s. She says she has a lot of trouble relating to the Taiwanese students at the local university--most of whom are in their early 20s. We feel that the age gap has a lot to do with it....

It's strange that no one besides the three of us is intrigued by our discussion!!!

Taylor

[martinphipps]

I think Monk pretty much nailed it. Older people in Taichiong usually do assume that foreigners can speak Mandarin, probably because older people are more likely to think of Mandarin as a foreign language. Let's not forget too, that more educated people might be going to schools where they encourage them to use English to speak to foreigners so this might contribute to any feelings of guilt they might have over speaking English. Most of the young people I speak to do, however, switch to Chinese when they realise that my Chinese is better than their English but, yes, they do look embarassed.

What Monk said pretty much applies to people in Korea too, except that older people in Korea have a tendency to not only expect you to speak Korean but also insist that you speak Korean. I actually think that we are quite lucky here in Taiwan and have nothing to complain about. That was my main point in my previous posts.

Martin

[Travel Zen]

[TaoyuanSteve]

The surprise isn't always pleasant. I had a person literally jump today because I spoke Mandarin to her. She was freaked out a bit and expained her reaction to me: "wo mei xiang dao ni hui jiang guo yu." (I didn't think you could speak Chinese). People here have alot of stereoypes about foreigners and the west. It is often hard for locals to accept that a non-Chinese can and will speak Mandarin to them.

[Taylor]

Dear Travel Zen,

If you read my post again, please notice that I specifically mentioned Taiwanese--as opposed to Mandarin. In case anyone does not know, these are two very different languages.

Can you imagine an old Taiwanese lady doing a rap video with Snoop Doggy Dog? That is about how strange it could seem to the locals..to see a tall, black guy speaking fluent TAIWANESE at an open-air market.
I was describing a very specific scenario to make a point. No stereotypes were intended.

Ultimately, there are advantages to NOT being perfectly fluent in a given language.

Taylor

[m o n k]

[martinphipps]

Hi.

I just want to say before I get started that I don't mean to offend anyone. I realize that I, myself, am the worst at taking offense when there was, supposedly , none intended but that's why I am doubly concerned about not saying the wrong thing. After all, sometimes I do.

Okay, my point is that, guys, if you've only been here a few months and you've been studying Chinese during that time then, yeah, sometimes people don't realize that you are speaking Chinese... and it isn't just simply that they don't expect it from a foreigner. I know sometimes I talk to people and they don't understand me and don't realize I am talking in Chinese, even though I have been studying Chinese for a few years. The problem is that Chinese people hear the tones when people speak Chinese but are unaware of tones when we speak English. For Chinese people, the word isn't Chinese unless it is spoken with the correct tones. When I am tired and I don't make an effort to use tones then people don't understand me but if I repeat myself and make an effort to use the correct tone for each syllable then they realize I am speaking Chinese and they suddenly understand what I am saying. Then they will reply in Chinese, not in English, and may even be a bit more tolerant and show better comprehension even if I leave out the tones again.

As for your Chinese friends, well, they are probably just being polite. I had a Chinese friend tell me that I spoke Chinese like a "native" and I knew this wasn't true because, as I described above, people don't always understand me. Really, because we don't use tones the same way in English, it will take more than three months to master the use of tones. I've been studying Chinese for a few years and I still haven't mastered the use of tones. Perhaps, as adult learners, it is something we can never fully grasp. That is another reason for your Chinese friends, who are probably also English teachers and are sensitive to problems that learners of a foreign language may have, would not be critical of your Chinese and say it is "fine" even though some Chinese people, admittedly due to their own mental block of not being accustomed to hearing imperfect Chinese, may genuinely not realize that you are speaking Chinese.

Of course, there is a tendency for people to feel embarassed about not being able to speak English but, as Monk points out, this is mainly a thing young people feel, probably because they have studied English in school and should know how to speak it. I have noticed this myself in both Taiwan and Korea and fully agree with Monk's arguement with respect to young people here. But older people will yap away endlessly in Chinese if you give them the chance, although they have to be aware of the fact that you can speak Chinese first and that means speaking Chinese that they actually recognize as Chinese. If anything, old people in Taiwan (and kindergarteners too, as somebody just pointed out) tend to assume I know more Chinese than I actually do and it can be a bit embarassing for me when I have to say "Wo ting bu dong" and then they repeat themselves, slowly, so I can understand what they just said. As I said before, I consider these people to be exceptionally polite and are not just speaking to me in Chinese because they expect foreigners to speak Chinese.

An interesting anecdote, something that happened to me just yesterday at CKS airport when I was picking up a friend: I was at the Burger King and the saleslady was talking very quickly. I said "Wo ting bu dong" and she repeated herself and I got it the second time but she spoke just as quickly the second time. I told her "Ni keyi jiang man yidian" You could (literally, are allowed to) speak a bit slower. I must have said it correctly because people around me were laughing. Anyway, I was surprised that this young person was not the slightest bit embarassed about not being able to speak English, even though she was working at a Burger King at an international airport! So we need to be careful about making generalizations that obviously don't apply to everyone.

Martin