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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| In any political struggle publicity is more important than credibility. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Michael Moore, Rush Limbaugh, and virtually every political candidate ever to run for office all present(ed) repeated flawed arguments which often contradict(ed) themselves. Despite this they all come (came) to represent an ideology or cause by virtue of the consistent publicity. The only person I can think of who presented wholly rational undeniable humanitarian arguments is Albert Einstein and this is not what he's remembered for. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: Re: who do I contact? |
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| Roam wrote: |
| If I am refused entry to a place of business for obviously racist reasons who do I contact to report the situation? Is there a formal method of introducting consequences into these ignorant people's lives? |
Based on what I read from Debito's website and his Yunohana onsen court case, the judge basically ruled that such discrimination itself in Japan is not illegal depending on the 'severity' of the discrimination as in 'too much' discrimination and there is no obligation for the local or municipal government to pass laws or ordinances banning discrimination.
In other words, you can take it all the way to the Supreme Court in japan as it Debito's case and the judge will rule against you, as the person who refused you because of your race did nothing illegal. There is no law in Japan against discriminating against someone, and even if there was, there will be no punishment or penalty.
THE DECISION ON DEFENDANT ONSEN YUNOHANA
THE GOOD NEWS
is that Yunohana's practice of excluding people simply because they look like foreigners is indeed racial discrimination, and an illegal activity punishable by a pretty large amount of compensation (by Japanese standards) in Japanese courts. This may send a message across Japan that businesses which practice this should desist.
THE BAD NEWS
is that the decision held that RACIAL DISCRIMINATION in itself is not the punishable activity. On the bottom of page 23 it reads (my translation):
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"Therefore, in this particular case of bathing refusals, refusing all foreigners without exception is 'unrational discrimination' (fugouri na sabetsu). As it can be said to go beyond permissable societal limits, this is illegal and thus illegal activity."
(Original Japanese: Shitagatte, gaikokujin ichiritsu nyuuyoku kyohi no houhou ni yotte nasareta honken nyuuyoku kyohi wa, fugouri na sabetsu de atte, shakai teki ni kyoyou shiuru gendo o koeteiru mono to ieru kara, ihou de atte fuhou koui ni ataru.)
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The point being: "racial discrimination" per se is not the problem in this case. It is the act of discriminating TOO MUCH that made this activity illegal (with the underlying assumption behind "rational discrimination" being some discrimination is unavoidable, if not logically justifiable, in society).
Nowhere in this judgment are questions clarified of "What is the 'socially permissible limit' of discrimination?" and "When does it become 'too much'?" Nor is the premise of "Rational Discrimination" defined. (I asked reporters at our press conference to research and debate this.)
These statements effectively dilute the applicability of our case as a litmus test for other discriminatory activities in Japan. For how does one define or sanction against "racial discrimination"? Take it to Japanese court for a couple of years with a hopefully watertight case, and let that particular judge decide? Clearly not an option for all people in Japan.
Also, bear in mind that this is a court decision, not a law. It holds some precedent force in the judiciary, but has no force in the legislative or administrative branches of government. It is a signal of what might happen if one sues, no more.
Now how about the potential of legislation to make discrimination of this sort clearly "illegal", enforcable by the administrative branch? This is dealt with in the second part of our ruling:
THE DECISION ON DEFENDANT OTARU CITY
THE GOOD NEWS
is that the judges recognize that the City, as a local wing of public power, is as "duty-bound" as the national government to bring racial discrimination to an end. That resolves one possible loophole of the UN Convention on Racial Discrimination being applicable only to national governments (as they are the ones who negotiated the treaty).
However,
THE BAD NEWS
is that the government can indemnify itself, as it is under no legal obligation to pass laws or local ordinances it would have to enforce to eliminate racial discrimination. In the middle of page 25 it reads (my translation):
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"Defendant Otaru City, as it is a regional public organization playing a part in public administration, has the same duty as the national government to prohibit and bring an end to racial discrimination. However, this duty is no more than a political one, and concerning matters between individual citizens, this is interpreted to mean that the [city government] is under no clear and absolute (ichigiteki) obligation to prohibit or bring to an end concrete examples of racial discrimination by establishing local laws (jourei)."
(Original Japanese: "...chihou koukyou dantai de aru hikoku otaru shi ga, koukenryoku no ichiyoku o ninou kikan to shite, kuni to douyou ni, jinshuu sabetsu o kinshi shi shuuryou saseru gimu o ou to shitemo, sore wa seijiteki sekimu ni todomari, koko no shimin to no aida de, jourei o seitei suru koto ni yotte gutaiteki na jinshu sabetsu o kinshi shi shuuryou saseru koto ga ichigiteki ni meikaku ni gimu zukerareru mono de wa na to kai sareru."
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So this means they oughta, but as it is a political matter they don't hafta. Since Japanese judical precedent holds that the abscence of formal domestic laws, international treaties are binding in their place, this sets a bad precedent for further legal application of the UN Convention against Racial Discrimination in Japan.
The backbone of this ruling is that "discrimination is not an illegal activity unless a judge says so, since there is no specific law to eliminate this sort of practice". Yet it is removing all pressure on the government to make that specific law to eliminate it. |
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chixdiggit
Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 60
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I reckon PaulH has hit this one on the head. Any way you look at it, it's still discrimination. Yes, Nismo, it was poorly written, but PaulH tagged you I think, as you seem to be incessantly defending or apologizing for the Japanese(although I appreciated your well-formulated response to the article). I love this country and its people, but when they're wrong, they're wrong mate. Uncle Tom never lived in this country.
Cheers,
Chix |
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goman72
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Gosford, NSW, Australia.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject: Rejection of foreigners is bad 4 business in Hokkaido |
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I sent the Japan Times link to a non-Japanese friend of mine (who shall remain anonymous) who is currently residing on the island of Hokkaido and this is what that friend had to say...
"I have to say it seems like complete nonsense to me. I've been out in Suskino lots and I've never been stopped and neither have any of my
friends. In fact a lot of the coolest bars actually give foreigners special
offers to attract them as it gives them a trendy cosmopolitan atmosphere!
The only places where it might be true are the brothels but I don't know a lot about that.
I think the the key thing here is that it is to do with Russians. Russians are discriminated against and that is because 90% of the crime and trouble here is caused by Russians. As long as you don't wear a cheap 80's suit with army boots you should be fine!"
Hmmmm, interesting isn't it? You lot must be dressing in cheap 80's suits and wearing kinky Russian army boots to match !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris |
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homersimpson
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Rubbish. Racism is country-wide. Any apologist who thinks otherwise is simply fooling him/herself. Don't get me wrong, racism is rarely overt, but it does exist. Oddly, I've found the racism most lacking in Okinawa. I believe the older set are anti-America (for a reason) but also anti-Japanese; Okinawans are not Japanese. |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am in no way an apologist. I even started out by saying he has a valid point on racism, but that it is hardly the huge problem that he is trying to make it out to be. I despise racism, but isn't labelling the Japanese as racist a bit of a generalization, something that itself leads to more racism? Sure, I've heard a few racist comments here and there, but hardly anything that would offend me. It isn't like gaijin are being lynched. I've heard more racist remarks in a week in the United States.
The article continually points out that when the visitor of Japan returns home he will present his home country with a bad image of Japan. Debito himself is putting a single incident under a microscope and claiming what you see is to scale. His article is slanderous and points out nothing but fault, gives no reason besides that the fear was established through English, German, and Italian governments, and even quotes someone as saying that Japanese have wanted to ban foreigners all along and were just waiting for the right time to arise.
Furthermore, this is a double-edged sword - All of the problems I had ever seen escalate in Japan, ALL of them, were the result of immature foreigners who were exploiting Japanese social customs. These are mutual faults, so don't think foreigners are the sole victims here (a new trait I would like to name The '45 Syndrome, a comparison to how the Japanese feel in regard to WWII).
Let's shift the possible solution around a bit. Because most foreigners in Japan are not naturalized citizens, like Debito, his point applies to an extremely limited number of people. He can't flat out say, "I am a citizen so I should be allowed in," because he would alienate such a large audience of people: Those of us living in Japan as non-citizens. So, in an effort to rally the largest number of people affected, he gives skeptical (at best) evidence of overt racism. His solution is to bring the government in on the issue.
Instead of suing for rights, I believe we should have to earn our rights. I'm a fan of hard-work, and rebuilding what my predecessors have destroyed is all I can do. The foreign population before me has shattered the confidence of Japanese on numerous occasions by exploiting their good-will. I will not try to gain entry to an establishment that explicitly bans me, and I will express my disapproval of the establishment by kindly requesting my Japanese friends to refrain from being a patron of the establishment as well. Perhaps they will spread the word to their friends, and a subtle strike will soon take place.
Also, as a foreigner, I will always be cautious of my own actions and how they might be perceived by the Japanese populace. I will be quick to reprimand other foreigners behaving in a bad manner that might detract from my own image. At least, that would seem to be the Japanese way to do things. |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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"Instead of suing for rights, I believe we should have to earn our rights. I'm a fan of hard-work, and rebuilding what my predecessors have destroyed is all I can do"
Speak for yourself... I am a human first and foremost, and whether or not other people (who happen to be white, or foreign or whatever) have made mistakes or not, I am not responsible for that. I am not them. If someone tries to bar me from entering a place just because they falsely 'assume' I'm like other 'bad' foreigners they've heard about, I'm going to feel outraged, plain and simple. Assumptions like these are no better than errors and the benefit of the doubt is lost. I just want to be treated with respect on a human-to-human basis like everyone else, don't you? I refuse to conform and accept blindly that "when in Rome" (or Japan) I should do as they do to "earn" my basic rights, even if they refuse to treat me as an equal in the most basic sense. It's called respect, and anyone who ignorantly writes me off in superficial, RACIST way, has none. If I commit a crime it's a different sorry, but being a legal foreigner is no crime. Nobody should apologise for being disciminated against. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
| Also, as a foreigner, I will always be cautious of my own actions and how they might be perceived by the Japanese populace. I will be quick to reprimand other foreigners behaving in a bad manner that might detract from my own image. At least, that would seem to be the Japanese way to do things. |
I will also add that 'the Japanese populace' also discriminate against each other at an official government level. Just ask the Ainu, Koreans born in Japan, burakumin, not to mention against Asian people and foreigners.
Dont expect they will cut you some slack because you choose to engage in civil protest. You can choose not to go into a shop which bars you which is your right but dont expect the signs to come down as a result of you telling your friends about. No action means no result, or at best, being ignored. When there is no law saying that what they are doing is illegal, not to mention morally reprehensible, there will be no reason for them to do anything about it. Having a few friends say they wont go there doesnt make the problem go away.
I will also add that the government and the universities here have been discriminating against contracted full time university teachers here since the 1970's or before. Dont expect them to change their spots now. Its actually the government who writes the laws. My university last year was a national university and my salary was paid by Monbusho. It said by law (was actually written in a book as a government statute) I can only work a maximum three years (they actually gave four and then I was out on my a-ss) and not be made a permanent member of faculty. the private universities such as Im at now simply follow suit as its convenient for them to keep contracted foreigners on a short leash. Taikibansei has a PhD, publications in international journals, sat on several committees, ten years experience here, yet was told by a Japanese professor with a BA that his future was not assured at his university, so he left where he didnt feel welcome.
Also Japanese kill each other in significant numbers, commit robbery and arson, commit fraud and rip each other off in "ore-ore" scams. Japanese leave their babies to die of heat stroke in locked cars or bully kids to death.
You seem to have this idea that all Japanese people are a gentle benevolent nation, all Japanese are one big happy family and that "the Japanese way" is something in which you should not take the Lord's name in vain. I am not a tourist, I am a long term tax-paying resident with a family. I live here and pay (high) taxes, not to mention expensive pension and health insurance, more in taxes than many Japanese salaried workers and even my students. I can not even vote on how those taxes are spent as the government chooses to deny me that right. They also have their hand in my pocket by taking out national pensions which i will never see again unless I live here 25 years. It is legalised theft by the Japanese government.
There is no such thing as "Japanese way" of doing things. You talk about Debito generalising from one incident yet you say that what a few immature foreigners you met in a year in Japan has totally spoiled things for the rest of us, that there is a Japanese way of doing things that will apply equally to 127 million people as though they talk and think the same (talk about a stereotype and generalisation), when you have Japanese people who sue and kill each other, hold different political and religious beliefs and discriminate against each other daily. You make out this Japanese way is some inviolate and sacred thing which foreigners have no right to violate and must bow down before because we are not Japanese. My wife is Japanese and she is discriminated against every day. How many such incidents does it take before you say 'enough'? 10? 20? 50?
Is it the Japanese way to be a racist and discriminate against each other?
Is it the Japanese way to deny permanent resident tax payers the vote on how their taxes are spent?
Is it the Japanese way to fire me from my job every three years because Im not japanese, thus discriminating not just against me but my Japanese wife and my Japanese children, who did nothing wrong?
Is it the Japanese way to deny pensions and benefits to korean Hiroshima bomb victims and keep their memorial outside the park?
Is it the Japanese way for the Tokyo Governor to call Koreans and chinese foreign devils or to not allow Korean-Japanese born in Japan to become public servants?
Is it the Japanese way for the government to set up a website to spy on its foreign residents?
Is it the Japanese way to forbid Japanese citizens from entering an onsen or a restaurant for dinner becuase they have a foreign husband or foreign guests?
Is it the japanese way to request fingerprints for gaijin cards or refuse me an apartment based on race?
Is it the Japanese way to refuse to hire me full time at a public high school, or have my job replaced by a Japanese with less qualifications?
Is it the Japanese way to charge foreigners 3,000 yen if they want to leave the country and come back in?
Is it the Japanese way for the government to help themselves to my pay check by keeping all the money paid into a pension except the first three years worth?
I dont want to get on your case Nismo, but you have spent all of a year here, have this romantic vision of a Japanese Shangri-la and that everything is hunky dory in the land of Wa and what the Japanese think about you is paramount even if they hold you in contempt. Also how many 'immature foreigners' do you know or have you met? Is it the same number as the one or two Russians that Debito talks about? Many of these things have nothing to do with immature foreigners but are institutionalised racism, at the highest levels, starting with the Japanese Prime Minister visiting Yasukuni shrine and war criminals, and the Jiminto, downwards.
Dont be so goddamn naive, Nismo.
Someone who defends a Japanese racist is an apologist. |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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You've got Japan under the microscope, but take in the view of the whole world and Japan is the safest place to be. EVERY country has its problems, and there is no excuse for the problems to exist, but you can't change the world in a courtroom over night.
You're confusing naivete with optimism.
By "The Japanese Way" I mean the social path of actions the general population adheres to (i.e. The one who blows up and starts yelling is seen as the guilty party regardless of truth. The one who humbles himself in apology despite the truth is seen as a hero.) I'm not saying the Japanese way is right, even. Just because I mention it doesn't mean I agree with it. But, when in Rome...(to use a cliche at the most appropriate time). I didn't mean that "The Japanese Way" is some chivalrous, pure, noble path in life. It's just different from "The American Way", or "The Canadian Way", or "The [insert country here] Way".
I feel there are a lot of things that should change not only in Japan, but in the world. I don't think it is my place to change what's wrong with Japan, but maybe through display of my own actions I can change the way a Japanese person feels. I know everyone wants compensation, but taking things to court is not always the answer. Sometimes you've just got to persevere.
Priority is an objectionable property of any issue. Is it that foreigners should be catered to before Japanese women get equal social rights? I've yet to see Debito write an article about the issue of Japanese women in the workplace, and there are far more women in Japan than non-Japanese. Does that make the issue more important? Is Debito an activist for a cause only because he is affected by the results?
Finally, to clear anyone's misunderstandings - I am not against ridding Japan of racism. I am not condoning Japanese business practice of racial profiling. What I am doing is pointing out that Debito is a pretentious ass that should stop trying to write at a professional level. He is very well known in the foreign community in Japan, but that does not make him respectable at all. I'll compare him to Michael Moore - He has a great message but he goes about voicing it the wrong way. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
Priority is an objectionable property of any issue. Is it that foreigners should be catered to before Japanese women get equal social rights? I've yet to see Debito write an article about the issue of Japanese women in the workplace, and there are far more women in Japan than non-Japanese. Does that make the issue more important? Is Debito an activist for a cause only because he is affected by the results?
. |
Just for the record, Debito, does not fight the Japanese' battles for them. thats why he never writes about Japanese peoples problems within Japanese society. they can take care of themselves through legal and other channels. He argues for injustice against foreigners in Japan where he sees it. Your posts seem to suggest that discrimination against foreigners is allowed becuase its done by Japanese and it somehow infringes on the nebulous 'Japanese way' to complain about it. Several cases in osaka foreigners have actually won court cases against their Japanese employers, so sometimes we do have a case.
If you go to his website he lists several court cases he was not involved in in: the Gwen Gallagher case in Hokkaido, the Korst case in Okinawa and the Kumamoto prefectural university court case. Debito was not a party to these but brought these to public attention through his activism through PALE.
I would also say if his writing is good enough for the Japan Times he cant be doing too badly for a largely amateur writer. he is not a professional journalist in the strict sense of the word, is fairly prolific though he has just published a commercial book on the onsen case.
| Nismo wrote: |
| You've got Japan under the microscope, but take in the view of the whole world and Japan is the safest place to be. |
Just ask the people in Niigata,or Kobe in 1997 right? Japan is not safe if you have wife and kids to feed and risk unemployment every 2 or 3 years as i do on a regular basis. speak for yourself, buddy.
| Nismo wrote: |
YBy "The Japanese Way" I mean the social path of actions the general population adheres to (i.e. The one who blows up and starts yelling is seen as the guilty party regardless of truth. The one who humbles himself in apology despite the truth is seen as a hero.) I'm not saying the Japanese way is right, even. Just because I mention it doesn't mean I agree with it. But, when in Rome...(to use a cliche at the most appropriate time).
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Im in Rome and do as the Romans do but dont pretend to be Japanese.Japanese have their own way of dealing with foreigners, but this will depend on whether you are white, peruvian, Chinese or from Ghana or Myanmar. Not all foreigners are treated the same here.
I dont have to like them letting me go every three years or helping themselves to my pension.
| Nismo wrote: |
I feel there are a lot of things that should change not only in Japan, but in the world. I don't think it is my place to change what's wrong with Japan, but maybe through display of my own actions I can change the way a Japanese person feels. I know everyone wants compensation, but taking things to court is not always the answer. Sometimes you've just got to persevere.
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Then why do Americans sue at the drop of a hat? Japanese dont like suing each other either but sometimes its necessary. Somebody works at a university for fifteen years, told they have tenure and then suddenly told in Jaanuary you have no job next year becuase your husband is Japanese and you dont need a job, and you are no longer 'fresh gaijin', you would be pretty upset too. People like us have mortgages and school/university loans to pay. Car loans and credit cards to pay off. Universities here dont give a s--t.
| Nismo wrote: |
| Finally, to clear anyone's misunderstandings - I am not against ridding Japan of racism. I am not condoning Japanese businesses practice racial profiling. What I am doing is pointing out that Debito is a pretentious ass that should stop trying to write at a professional level. He is very well known in the foreign community in Japan, but that does not make him respectable at all. I'll compare him to Michael Moore - He has a great message but he goes about voicing it the wrong way. |
So writing for Japan times is not professional, (though his full time job is a tenured academic) as well as publishing books? How many books have you written Nismo? How many times have your articles been in the newspaper? |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting discussion indeed!
PAULH, so if I understand correctly, if I enter (or rather, try to enter) an establishment such as a bar or restaurant or izakaya and they wave their hands and say "JAPANESE ONLY", that they cannot legally be prosecuted?
So it is entirely within their rights to do that? And I can't do anything about it, other than just take my business elsewhere?
If that's the case, that's really pathetic.
That's never happened to me, but it's happened to a few of my friends, who are well-mannered, well-dressed British guys who just wanted to have a drink and were turned down at several different bars by staff who said "SORRY, JAPANESE ONLY!!"
This by the way, did not happen in Hokkaido but in Kanagawa!! And get this, it happened near Hon Atsugi, an area which has quite a few foreigners.
To play devil's advocate, it may very well have been because the bar owners thought they were US Army.....
but even then, it's still wrong to discriminate against them just because you believe they are US Army (many of them are utter imbeciles but that's still no reason to bar anyone entrance to your establishment). |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| SEndrigo wrote: |
Very interesting discussion indeed!
PAULH, so if I understand correctly, if I enter (or rather, try to enter) an establishment such as a bar or restaurant or izakaya and they wave their hands and say "JAPANESE ONLY", that they cannot legally be prosecuted?
So it is entirely within their rights to do that? And I can't do anything about it, other than just take my business elsewhere?
If that's the case, that's really pathetic.
That's never happened to me, but it's happened to a few of my friends, who are well-mannered, well-dressed British guys who just wanted to have a drink and were turned down at several different bars by staff who said "SORRY, JAPANESE ONLY!!"
This by the way, did not happen in Hokkaido but in Kanagawa!! And get this, it happened near Hon Atsugi, an area which has quite a few foreigners.
To play devil's advocate, it may very well have been because the bar owners thought they were US Army.....
but even then, it's still wrong to discriminate against them just because you believe they are US Army (many of them are utter imbeciles but that's still no reason to bar anyone entrance to your establishment). |
Im not a lawyer, but if one is not a member of a club or with a club member the management has the right to refuse entry. they can also refuse you if you have tattoos or belong to the yakuza.
I will add that refusal to a public facility, such as a community center, a library even enrol your kids in a public elementary school is illegal, as these are paid for out of taxpayers money. refusing a group of homosexuals for example wanting to rent a conference room, can result in a lawsuit.
You also can not enter a miltary base when you feel like it either. try walking onto a Jieitai or a US army base and see what happens.
What i am talking about is private businesses that are open to the public that Japanese can use and patronise. restaurants, pachinko, parlors, bars, hotel lobbies, airports, publicly funded onsen and hot springs. If I am Japanese, or my family is Japanese, and membership is not required they can not refuse to allow me, but the trouble is there is nothing stopping them refusing me because I am a foreigner, and there is no law I can go to which prohibits it or says its illegal. As Debito points out, it is up to the discretion of the individual judge whether it is discrimination or not and there are no penalties for the person who does the discriminating, unless you sue him in court and win damages. |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: |
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IMHO the problem is there are many kinds of foreigners here.
On one side, there are the long term types. Paul, me, Debito, guys who are here for life, or at least a long time. We are married, have kids, debts, loans, etc. I personally worry about the future I am leaving for my son. I dont want him to face any crap for the misfortune of being half Canadian. I want to protect my family and support them as best I can.
The other are short term, usually single, usually younger. They have less invested in the society here, both financially and emotionally.
I am not trying to get into a dick measuring contest by any means, you know the "I've been here x number of years, so I know better" type. But, they ARE different perspectives.
Rights are not 'earned', they are instead lost. They should be seen as, how can I say, a natural part of life, and be taken away only when absolutely necessary.
In Japan, it seems that the law follows the society. Lawmakers wont change the law because the social custom is different. Instead, the law should take precedence. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
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I will mention that there have been several cases including Arudos (he wone 3 million yen compensation but lost on appeal to the District court in Hokkaido and could not get the Hokkaido government to admit wrongdoing and apologise.
Another case in Nagoya the Brazilian woman journalist won 100,000 yen in compensation from the shopkeeper for throwing her out of the store.
Foreigners can and do win in cases like this but they need to have deep pockets, a reliable work visa and job that allows them to stay in Japan for the duration, to see a case through to the verdict and they need a good lawyer who will take on the case, and who thinks you can win. The average English teacher on 250,000 yen a month, doesnt have the cash, the stamina and cajones to wait out a court case that may last a year, and you could quite possibly lose.
With all due respect to Nismo, he wont have a leg to stand on as its easier for him to dismiss or ignore a case of discrimination when it happens, due to lack of funds and gumption to fight a court case instead of actually do something about such injustice, which will cost time, money and sleep at night. Thats what people like Debito are trying to do, but you get armchair quarterbacks like Nismo who think they know better than the players. |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Just for the record, Debito, does not fight the Japanese' battles for them. thats why he never writes about Japanese peoples problems within Japanese society. they can take care of themselves through legal and other channels. He argues for injustice against foreigners in Japan where he sees it. Your posts seem to suggest that discrimination against foreigners is allowed becuase its done by Japanese and it somehow infringes on the nebulous 'Japanese way' to complain about it. Several cases in osaka foreigners have actually won court cases against their Japanese employers, so sometimes we do have a case. |
But earlier you said he is Japanese, in the sense that he is a citizen. It is apparent in his articles that he is irked that he is discriminated against despite his nationality. He is a minority on that issue and I see his articles as self-serving.
Discrimination against foreigners should not be allowed, and I am not trying to justify it at all. I despise discrimination of foreigners in Japan. I can't see where you are misinterpretting me, but you continue to do so. If in the future you wish to quote me on my stance of discrimination of foreigners, please refer to the portion of this post I have typed in bold letters.
| PAULH wrote: |
| I would also say if his writing is good enough for the Japan Times he cant be doing too badly for a largely amateur writer. he is not a professional journalist in the strict sense of the word, is fairly prolific though he has just published a commercial book on the onsen case. |
What I was getting at is that standards must be declining if his work can be published in the Japan Times. That article even gives me hope that I might find a position writing for the Japan Times one day. That isn't a good thing.
| PAULH wrote: |
| Just ask the people in Niigata,or Kobe in 1997 right? Japan is not safe if you have wife and kids to feed and risk unemployment every 2 or 3 years as i do on a regular basis. speak for yourself, buddy. |
We weren't talking about natural disasters. If that were the case, just look at Washington in the U.S., where major volcanic activity that is entirely possible could carry with it not only the consequence of destroying Seattle, but also that it is far enough in the North that it could bring with it a drastic change in temperature, melting the ice caps and flooding any city on the coast, world-wide.
As far as job security goes - you made the decision to be where you are at right now with full knowledge of how the system works. Taking your vows, starting a family, residing in Japan - all of it comes down to your own free-will. You decided to put yourself in the situation that you are in. It was a gamble, and it seems like you are still juggling what life in Japan is throwing at you.
| PAULH wrote: |
Im in Rome and do as the Romans do but dont pretend to be Japanese.Japanese have their own way of dealing with foreigners, but this will depend on whether you are white, peruvian, Chinese or from Ghana or Myanmar. Not all foreigners are treated the same here.
I dont have to like them letting me go every three years or helping themselves to my pension. |
You did make the conscious decision to take a position, knowing in full the results of your contract, did you not? Give them an inch...
| PAULH wrote: |
| Then why do Americans sue at the drop of a hat? |
I don't know, but it's a phenomenon that I despise and one of the major contributors to my alienation from the nation I happened to be born in.
| PAULH wrote: |
| So writing for Japan times is not professional, (though his full time job is a tenured academic) as well as publishing books? How many books have you written Nismo? How many times have your articles been in the newspaper? |
I've not written any books or professional articles, and I refuse to do so until my writing skills match the standards of a professional level. Debito seems to have jumped ahead of the game somehow, as he is published, but what's been published is complete rubbish. I'd venture to say that his article borders slander, and if it were to be published in the U.S., all of those sue-happy citizens might be inclined to take him to court.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION IN DISCRIMINATION, but what it comes down to is Japanese citizens making a conscious and united decision to end the discrimination. Until then, it's still their country. As a democracy stands, the law is in the hands of the majority, regardless of if their decisions are good or bad (unfortunately). |
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