Job Discussion Forums

[cj750]

It is my feelin that you folks make more to this than it is....
In the south (CSA), terns used often have no place in the rest of the country but are similar to meanings of words used in China.
Lagniappe (lan' yap) for example is a N.O. terms used to detail the relationship of the buyer to the seller...where as the special relationship earns the seller a little somthin extra....or visa versa

[cujobytes]

Tofuman, I don't understand what you mean when you talk about people not having guanxi with their wifes family. If a person is accepted by the family of course they have guanxi. But is it any use? Guanxi, as of the type we are talking about here, should be useful If your wifes uncle is the chief of police, then make sure you take him to dinner from time to time. Buy his kids gifts at times. That's useful guanxi. I don't see it as ass kissing. Cultivate and use these relationships, especially when you don't need them because you never know when you may.
Guanxi is very important in China and foreigners certainly can have good guanxi. Who you know goes a long way here. You'll never have guanxi with people who have power over you (I.E. your boss) But wouldn't it be good to be on first name terms with the head of the education department in your city. That would almost give you power over your boss, especially if your relationship with the education department head was better than your bosses.
I cross borders using the V.I.P. route rather than queing with the cattle because I drink with some army colonels stationed in the border crossing. I have loads of usefull guanxi here, most of it I've never used, but I continue to cultivate those friendships because you never know.
Develop and cultivate guanxi, it's your best tool in China.

[tofuman]

Cujo, I'm not going to elaborate on the marriage thing because it is second hand information and I may not have the story right.

I don't drink. I won't drink, except when I feel like it. And then nothing with higher than 5% alcohol. I do not smoke. I hate tobacco. I hate second hand smoke. I think less of people who smoke. These two factors exclude me from a lot of "relationships. " I am simply not interested in forming relationships with people based on behaviours that I abhor. To some local people, a man who doesn't smoke and/or drink alcohol is not to be trusted. I accept that. I avoid their companionship.

I may not last here very long, but I have a other options. Being "accepted" by the Chinese on their terms is not an option for me. A local said to me, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" with regard to alcohol consumption. When that saying was coined, Rome was not a backwater populated by bumpkins.

Take a look at the Oxford/Cornell China Project for some insight on how devastating tobacco rituals are to the Chinese. Yet these rituals are an important part of male social relationships. Being someone's *beep* is not a goal of mine.

[Professor Moriarty]

[Talkdoc]

Tofuman � I am sorry you are having such a rough time of it in China thus far. I imagine you haven�t been here a very long time.

To be frank, I deeply regretted my decision to move to China until I changed jobs and cities. My former employer, and the freezing cold and polluted city that I lived in, represented the very worst of this country for me. My limited and biased experiences skewed my perceptions so severely that, even as an educated person, I was (in retrospect) closed off to any evidence that contradicted the premature notions I had devised. Like you, I attributed the more favorable experiences reported by others as either uncharacteristically unique or simply and naively misinformed. I imagined they were engaging in some form of denial; one that I hoped I could cure them of.

I don�t believe your comparison of the Chinese to the Hasidic Jews is a valid one, for many reasons. Actually, I have first-hand knowledge of the latter; my first wife is a Jew and her family is from Antwerp and they are in the diamond business (although her family is not Hasidim). The orthodox religious component, combined with minority status and a long history of religious persecution clearly distinguish the mentality and mindset of Hasidic diamond merchants from that of the Chinese. The Chinese do not perceive themselves as historical and present-day victims of persecution who must band together against the rest of the world in order to procure their survival. They do view themselves as former world leaders who will, once again, rise to glory and who (not without some resentment and envy) must join forces with the Western world in order to do so. The Jews maintain a vigilant stronghold on the diamond industry (against outsiders) because, in no small part, this commodity was instrumental in their survival as a people. Many of my first wife�s family escaped Nazi Germany by liquidating their assets into portable currency, i.e., diamonds, which allowed them to make the perilous journey over the Alps into safety with their wealth intact. There is simply no way to draw an analogous and valid comparison of this defining experience to the Chinese. Although there are similar elements of experience based on isolated periods of invasion and exploitation, the entire gestalt of their psychohistory is completely different. I can see how a Japanese EFL teacher in China might have a particularly difficult time accessing and becoming a part of inner social networks here, but that is not the context we are addressing ourselves to in this thread.

Perhaps if others are asserting that they enjoy guanxi in China, it's not because they are self-deluded or necessarily unique. Yes, in order to be genuinely included within the social network, one needs to be in possession of information or contacts that are perceived as valuable to the group - but that condition would apply to many foreign teachers; ones without doctorates as well. Surely you are aware that there are many international companies enjoying successful existences here in China. That is entirely the result of guanxi; one cannot engage in any business in this country without it.

Regarding our roles here as street walkers and high-priced call girls, I have never allowed myself to be put in the situation of feeling like a prostitute, not in this country nor back home; at any price. In my last position I felt abused, exploited, unappreciated and disregarded but not in the manner of a prostitute � more like an unskilled and uneducated factory worker, I suppose. So I left.

And, 'Professor Moriarty', whether you want to call it cronyism, guanxi or social networking, this phenomenon exists in every part of the world. I can�t speak to other countries but back in the states, one�s credentials are often insufficient in securing a position above entry-level because the stakes are too high for those involved. It would be unusual for an academician, even with the best of education and a list of impressive publications, to be brought into a faculty without having some direct and trusted second or mutual third party (an insider) who can vouch for his performance and recommend him as a colleague. The classic manual for job-hunters and career changers, What Color is Your Parachute by Richard N. Bolles, repeatedly stresses the importance of social networking as a means for positioning oneself for the next job or career. This doesn�t speak to Bolles� acceptance of corruption or unethical behavior or his "insistence on employing euphemisms" at all; but rather a realistic and practical understanding of how the world really works.

Wishing you both better days.

Doc

[Professor Moriarty]

'QuackDoc', personally speaking my days could not be any better; but then that is most likely as I live and work in HK. I did not enjoy my time on the Mainland, partly due to (Brothers Grimm-like) concepts such as 'guanxi' which seem to take precedence over friendship or loyalty (let alone trust - all alien and irrational concepts to the Mainland Chinese).

[Talkdoc]

Welcome back Ludwig. We've missed you - in a sadomasochistic sort of way, of course.

Doc

[tofuman]

Doc, Perhaps your wife's family was escorted across the Alps by a former acquaintance of mine, the head of the Dutch-Paris underground?

I was not comparing Jewish diamond merchants to Chinese in general, simply looking for an illustration to explain tight knit business and social networks. The position of certain extreme Jewish sects that regard goyim as "dogs" certainly does characterize the views of some Chinese regarding Westerners. Your description of China as former world leaders who will again rise to glory is exactly how certain Jews view themselves. The glory of Solomon and conquests of the warrior-king David are very much a part of their history and consciousness.

Although I don't look Jewish, my ability to befuddle occasional Hasidim with Yiddishisms and Hebrew, as well as my beard [at that time], was a source of amusement. How they hasted away after having invited, inadvertently, a schnorrer ( of the Israel Zangwill sort) to join their minyin.

As for the prostitute metaphor, no offense intended. More appropriate, in your case, to compare the experiences of a first year resident with that of the chief of staff. Both are medical doctors. No doubt their job satisfaction/experiences are quite different.

Anyway, I consider this whole enterprise to be a house built upon sand. China's interest in the West is based on the most ignominious of values--the love of money. I profitted enormously from the AIDS crisis in the USA, although it came at an unbelievable to cost to the victims. I don't mind doing the same thing here for a while.

Now, as then, I have a unique skill.

Take care.

[Old Dog]

Well, I don't know if I have any guanxi or not. It doesn't worry me. But I do have good friends and I have a pretty good idea of which of them has guanxi where. Hence, when I have a problem or I need something done quickly or with least fuss or when I am in total ignorance of how something could be achieved, I simply contact the appropriate friend - and, generally, all doors open and all problems are solved.

I used to hear more about guanxi at village level than I do here. For the peasant, to get things done is often somewhat difficult. They tend to be dismissed. As a result, when something of some importance to them has to be put in motion, some considerable time is spent considering who it may be that they know who might have the most powerful guanxi with the appropriate official.

I was involved once with a matter of a passport application and all that went with it at that time and in that place. We ended up dealing with a furniture maker who, I take it, was known to few of the group. But someone, somehow, had links with this man and he, it was said, had good connections with the local PSB chief. There were banquets and gifts, naturally, and, as far as the local level proceedings were concerned, the passport application went smoothly. Things got a bit more complicated when the matter got to the PSB in Wuhan but that matter was sorted out, not with guanxi, but with the exercise of blunt superior authority which a relative from somewhere within "three generations" was able to apply.

At the moment, an attempt is being made to lure me to a large city by a member of the government of that city who takes it for granted that his position can secure whatever position might be desired there. But this has nothing to do with guanxi. I am in city A. I have well-placed friends in city B who have a relative in city C who is a good friend and former classmate of the government official in City C. As the wave of my particular interest moved from A to B to C to C, the idea of locating me in City C occurred to the government officer for reasons best known to him. But this has nothing to do with guanxi. It's just a plain old-fashioned friendship chain whereby someone at the end of the chain sees benefit in making an offer to someone at the other end of the chain - and everyone, thereby, is supposed to benefit. This sort of thing happens the world over.