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laodeng
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 481
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 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Talkdoc wrote: |
This is a pubic forum and
Doc |
A parapraxis?
But, seriously, I agree with you 100%.
Despite their protestations to the contrary, I have this terrible feeling that some of our peers don't even [/i]know,[i] for instance, the difference between "your" and "you're."
Keep at 'em, Doc. |
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Old Dog
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:46 am Post subject: From the depths |
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No Moss wrote:
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| I've given up all hope.--Old Dog |
How true! I had prepared a posting which, out of courtesy to forum members, I had edited with reasonable care to ensure that I did not offer them the insult of basic spelling errors and grammatical abominations - and then I thought, "Why bother?" And I deleted it and went on to something else. But, today, Talkdoc spurs me into action as I sit in mercifully airconditioned seclusion in an Australian summer.
I deleted what I had written because those who should embarrass themselves by their ignorance of the basics of what they come here and profess to teach simply slough off all criticism. They know no shame in displays that would have produced apoplexy in their primary teachers. They defend themselves with "it doesn't matter", "I'm in relaxed mode", "who speaks and writes accurately all the time", ..... - anything that produces a conscience so clear that self-improvement is never a consideration. The way they defend themselves would lead one to believe that they'd think it OK for a Maths teacher to demonstrate accuracy in addition only in the classroom.
Does this mean that I never make spelling errors? Of course not. But I do know when I am in doubt about a word and a dictionary is always as close as my keyboard. Were my spelling to be of dubious quality, then I'd probably resort to the spell check capacity of Word. I do this for two reasons - first, there is my own self-respect and, second, there is the question of the respect that I wish to show to my readers.
And grammar? Is my writing always in accord with the conventions of educated English? Not always - generally not through ignorance, however, but through carelessness or through tricks of the ear. Occasionally my last-used noun is plural and in creeps a plural verb when, in fact, the subject of that verb, back a bit, is singular. Such errors are easily enough made but they need not be fatal. Surely, every teacher of English trains his/her students to edit systematically, particularly for spelling, for agreements and for accidental confusions of words like its, its, there, their, they're, ...
Talkdoc writes of the regard in which the rest of the world is likely to hold ft's in China as a result of reading these forums. How right he is! I blush at the thought of being associated by my participation in these forums with the abominations that I am daily confronted with here. Thank God for anonymity. I read certain contributions and think, "That is one of my colleagues writing" and I reflect that, whether I like it or not, all ft's in China will be tarred with the brush of sloppiness that is so much the stock in trade of an unfortunate number.
Taking care about what we write is more than ensuring that we use the power and precision that English affords us, it is also about demonstrating respect for ourselves and our readers.
So, yes, I've given up - but with this proviso. Any person wishing to be employed here (in "my" schools), any person who may wish to be my colleague is assessed first in terms of their literacy. Hence, should a vacancy turn up here this year, only the literate need apply.
As for my offer to assist with any grammatical problems that Chinese teachers may present forum members with, to which Talkdoc referred, guess how many queries I have received? Zero. Every week, I get questions from our staff about points that they either do not understand or have difficulty in explaining to their students. Otherwise, and often, they are confronted with errors in Chinese test papers and need reassurance that what they are confronted with are, indeed, errors. If you receive no such questions, could it be that the Chinese teachers have no faith in your English capacity? If you get such questions and reply only with "Well, that's how we say it", you are really not being of great help to your Chinese colleagues. I recognize that few people these days are masters of the grammatical terminology that will be understood by Chinese teachers. But if you can produce reasonably lucid explanations of questions presented to you, in time you'd gain big face in your Chinese staffrooms.
I read proposals for social get togethers in Shanghai or wherever. These are good ideas - but I also think that, maybe, one of these days a few people would like to get together to learn a simple understanding of English grammar and its terminology plus the phonetic script used in Chinese schools. And what a difference we could make to the quality of what goes on in ft classrooms here and to the regard in which ft's are held! |
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laodeng
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| The voice of one crying in the wilderness . . . (Matthew 3:3.) |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| laodeng wrote: |
| Talkdoc wrote: |
This is a pubic forum and
Doc |
A parapraxis? |
You don't understand; I can explain.
I had a really long day yesterday: was up since six in the morning and I was very busy all day running errands and getting the apartment ready for Spring Festival. Well, anyway, I guess I was overtired because I had trouble sleeping - so naturally, I logged onto Dave's ESL Cafe. But the problem, you see, is that it was about 3:56 in the morning when I started typing my reply and, what you DON'T know, Mr. Busybody, is that, for some mysterious reason, I lose power in my apartment every morning just around four o'clock. So I knew I had to type fast. But just as I was going to proofread my post (I had already clicked on the 'Preview' button), my microwave oven signaled me that my coffee was ready. So before I could proofread what I had just written, I headed off into the kitchen.
Well, here's what I think must have happened. My cat Jinx just loves to jump up on my desk all the time even though we have had very long and serious talks about this behavior. The only thing I can think of is that Jinx must have jumped up on the desk and apparently landed on the left-mouse button which must have, somehow, previously positioned itself over the 'Submit' button (most likely from the vibrations of all those fireworks going off right next to my window which is about three feet away from my mouse pad). So you see, this is not technically my fault at all because I lost power, as I had predicted, shortly after Jinx submitted the post for me. Actually, I just assumed the post had been lost - so you can imagine how shocked and appalled I was to learn that it had been submitted for me without my knowledge. Unfortunately, Jinx isn't much of a speller either and her grammar is even worse than mine.
But please don't worry - Jinx only assists me during my oral English classes and most of my students pronounce "public" like "pubic" anyway, so I really don't see how it matters very much.
Doc |
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laodeng
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Busybody? I post a fan letter (the latest in a series), and you call me "Mr. Busybody"? How unkind! How ungrateful!
I shall overlook this obviously passing aberration. Regards to your *beep* (the pre-beep reference was to your feline). And, incidentally, what a naughty world we live in. |
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Atlas
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 662
Location: By-the-Sea PRC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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'ello 'ello 'ello?
What's all this then?
I know the diff between their they're and there but occasionally something like this will slip out when I'm writing a ranting manifesto for the off topic forum. Yes I can spot the errors later. No I don't bother to correct them. Electronic formats like this or email are elementally more stream of consciousness and informal, IMO ni jidao ma?
A student of mine put it well yesterday; when asked if grammar was important, she said, "Absolutely. It show you have a respect for the language."
Imagine that! I love her!
These folks we're teaching probably know all about their and there, to and two, your and you're, its and it's. We are probably not introducing alien concepts to them, except for the deeper vocab of homynyms, heteronyms and the like (i.e. intimate and intimate).
Old dog, here's a grammar Q pour vous: can you please define with authority these concepts? I seem to find conflicting information regarding the homynyms and heteronyms.
Anyhoo, grammar is also a tool people can use to belittle others and sometimes that's all a person really cares about. Should teachers embody perfect grammar? Impossible. Sorry, teachers are humans and humans aren't perfect. Even the use of perfect grammar doesn't reveal the range of colloquial usage or facilitate comprehension. Capice? O Sensei said he had openings in his Aikido, his was just more practiced than others' so they couldn't spot the openings. Mastery isn't perfection.
Sometimes you will get a student (or teacher!) who flaunts his disrespect for the language, shouting out profanities in the classroom, or rolling his eyes at a he/she correction. Others flaunt their disrespect with the names they have chosen for themselves. Beats me why they would study to obtain skill for so many years and then shoot their own foot. Sometimes I sit in my class and think, "I wouldn't hire you in a million years; you're still stuck inside that big paper bag and you can't figure a way out."
Dem's da breaks! |
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No Moss
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 1995
Location: Thailand
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Talkdoc, I read your story with sympathy. What a catastrophe!
And Atlas, I think an understanding of the heteronymic characteristics of "read" is necessary pretty early on in your acquisition of English. |
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anthyp
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 1320
Location: Chicago, IL USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I admit: I'm guilty of the occasional lapse in grammar.
I have a weakness for run - on sentences, I'm sure you've noticed. A la Beckett. And starting sentences with and (or but.) But it's not like these indulgences ever distract from whatever (usually pointless) thing I'm saying. And I don't think I ever come across in an unintelligent manner, well when I'm sober anyway.
I would not point out somebody else's errors in a post, but I take a much more favorable attitude towards those who write their posts carefully. Some of these people sound like my Chinese students writing one of their dreadful compositions, seriously.
You know, it's like the difference between a teacher who dresses professionally for class and one who wears jeans and a T - shirt. Yeah, it doesn't make him or her any worse as a teacher, but ...
It takes about 3 seconds to go over your posts, people. Do it. |
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yaco
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 473
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: grammar police |
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You studied 3 english subjects in Australia if you are over the age of 40
- English
- English Grammar
- English Literature
English grammar as a subject was deleted from theAustralian curriculum's about 30 years ago. Since this time it has been incorporated into ' English '. As a 40 year old, I was never taught about gerunds, present continuous, present perfect tense etc at any level of school.
The western education system encourages us to think and to express our ideas with supporting arguments. In this system a written piece with coherent and substantiated arguments is given more weight, than a grammatically perfect piece with limited substantiation.
There is currently a debate at the tertiary level in England whether essays, should be marked down because of poor grammar and spelling.
I realise at times my grammar at times can be ordinary although my spelling is excellent.
I believe there is a touch of snobbery in this debate.
There are a few contributors to this forum who display an excellent writing style. I am certain that some of these people are uncomfortable in a public speaking forum whereas other people are more comfortable in this forum rather than writing.
Additionally there is always a snobbishness about educational levels. I am surprised that educated people can have such a simplistic notion of what intelligence is. I have a Masters Degree, so I am more intelligent than a person who finished High School.
Intelligence comprises far more components then strictly Academic achievements.
There are a myriad of reasons why people have different educational levels such as
- finances
- geography
- illness
- family reasons etc etc etc |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: grammar police |
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| yaco wrote: |
I believe there is a touch of snobbery in this debate.
Additionally there is always a snobbishness about educational levels. I am surprised that educated people can have such a simplistic notion of what intelligence is. I have a Masters Degree, so I am more intelligent than a person who finished High School.
Intelligence comprises far more components then strictly Academic achievements. |
Speaking entirely for myself, I never once equated intelligence with level of education, in anything that I've ever written: because I know better. My father was one of the smartest men I have ever known. His vocabulary was more sophisticated than mine is and he was far better read. He was a high school graduate and his writing skills were impressive. (Writing is a skill. Some people are naturally good at it; others, have to work hard at it. The more you write � correctly, that is, the better your writing will be.)
There is obviously some relationship between the attainment of higher education and one's intelligence quotient but it is not a particularly strong or linear one above a minimal or sufficient level of intelligence required to grasp the substance of what is being taught. In addition, there are also different types of intellectual strengths (related somewhat, but not strongly, to the degree of one's I.Q.). I personally know two physicians, in particular, who are extremely brilliant in their fields, but whose inability to engage in abstract thinking is actually frightening.
The main issue being debated on this thread, as I understand it, is whether or not it is fair and reasonable to expect those who call themselves "foreign experts" and "teachers" to be able to communicate on a forum for teachers in a manner congruous with and predicted by those titles.
I guess the real question, being debated now, is what constitutes "good enough?" We have received many thoughtful replies on the subject. Some feel just as long as the reader can discern the author's meaning, irrespective of typos, spelling and grammatical errors, that should be acceptable. Others believe we have a far greater responsibility than just meeting that single criterion, because of who we claim to be: including me. Others feel more �relaxed� writing is tantamount to taking a break from work or analogous to dressing more casually �at home,� on Dave�s ESL Caf�, than one would at the office. (I can see the validity of this last point IF the author is truly exercising a choice, i.e., truly possesses the ability to write more effectively and correctly if he/she so desired or needed to. In some cases it�s impossible to make that distinction, as there is an absence of contrast.)
In this context, I don't believe subscribing to the second belief (regarding �greater responsibility�) constitutes snobbery at all: not when (in some cases) barely comprehensible replies are being submitted by those who call themselves teachers. And honestly, it's common practice to redefine questions regarding legitimacy to those of elitism and snobbery, particularly by those who feel (realistically so or not) illegitimate.
I don't consider myself to be a "grammar cop" by any means because, in part, I am no expert on grammar (as some on this forum are). I have other pet peeves which I am far more sensitive to than spelling and grammar. Nevertheless, I don't think it is unreasonable or elitist to expect teachers, even if they are Phys. Ed. teachers, to be able to write effectively and correctly. After all, no one here has ever been criticized for not writing like James Joyce, James Fennimore Cooper or even John Grisham for that matter.
Doc |
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Madmaxola
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Doc.
Common mistakes like "they're" and "there" just show a little bit a sloppiness, and maybe a lack of reading and self-discipline- which is fine isn't it? Some people are also drunks outside the classroom 
Hopefully, when it comes to anything formal, people show a little bit of respect for the standards of whatever they're writing for.
(Just to bring up something else, I wonder if you just noticed my last sentence was grammatically "incorrect!" A-ha! well to some it is, and some it isn't- that is, ending the sentence with a preposition, which almost everyone naturally does, but is proscribed by some Angry Old English Teachers [AOET] - and about which Winston Churchill famously quoted "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something with which I will not up put.")
To be sure, there is a difference between natural grammar and syntax, and prescriptive grammar (For a good intro read "The language instinct" by Pinker, available wherever fine books are sold).
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yaco
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 473
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: grammar police |
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This topic was posted by Myra G, who is concerned about the ' Grammar Police' on this forum.
The intention of this post was to encourage teachers to help each other, rather than nitpicking about grammatical or spelling errors.
To be an effective teacher you need
- patience
- resources
- resourcefulness
- flexibility
- purpose
- organisation
- initiative
- tact
- diplomacy
- high level communication skills
It is not sufficient to have perfect grammar or writing and expect to be an effective teacher. You are unlikey to be an effective teacher unless you have all or most of the abovementioned qualities. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:23 am Post subject: Re: grammar police |
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| yaco wrote: |
To be an effective teacher you need
- high level communication skills |
You omitted one critically necessary condition: sufficient knowledge (some would argue expertise) in the field being taught. I possess all of the qualities you listed but I would never be recruited (nor would I even attempt) to teach chemistry, for example, at any level.
Sufficient knowledge, for the purposes of this discussion (and for the type of teaching we have been hired for in China), does not require advanced degrees in English or linguistics: granted. Sure, we are primarily oral English practice teachers but that does not (nor should it) exempt us from having some fundamental understanding of the mechanics of the language we have been hired to teach. What will some of us do, God forbid, if ever queried, by our charges, about the technical aspects of the English language: respond with "I think you should ask your Chinese teacher about this one" or "Sorry, that's not my job?"
What is required is a minimum of a bachelor's degree and, as you correctly indicated, high level communication skills. I'm curious Yaco, based on the variety and quality of posts that you have read, what percentage of posters on this forum, in your opinion, appear to meet that condition? (Assuming, of course, the manner in which some choose to post on this forum is truly indicative of their written communication skills.) Just off the top of my head, and based on the posts I have been reading over the past ten months or so, I would say more than 50 percent of the posts (as opposed to posters) on this forum reflect serious deficits in a fundamental understanding of grammar, syntax and proper word usage (and I'm omitting spelling errors and typos from the assessment).
| yaco wrote: |
| It is not sufficient to have perfect grammar or writing and expect to be an effective teacher. |
No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever been criticized for a lack of grammatical perfection (nor has anyone called for it): neither has anyone, thus far, claimed it is a sufficient condition for being a good teacher (but it is obviously a necessary condition, as you correctly indicate). And it is one that appears to be sorely lacking in some.
Doc |
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No Moss
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 1995
Location: Thailand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I have to agree with Talkdoc. You need some knowledge about the subject before you can teach it. I would also say that you need some knowledge of methodology, that is, how to teach the language. You can get that by going to school, by reading, by sharing ideas, and by experience. These debates usually come down to the same conclusion, to wit, that personal qualities are more important than knowledge (of subject and methodology) and experience. That's a nice "feel-good" conclusion, since everyone secretly feels that he possesses many worthy personal qualities. And it's a much easier solution than actually getting off your derriere and improving yourself.
But it sure makes for a fun debate! |
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Old Dog
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:46 am Post subject: Bare-foot vixen |
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Years ago, I was obliged to have lunch at a country pub in the wild west. A bare-foot waitress approached and asked, "What do youse want for lunch?" and upon delivery of the meal offered the imperative, "Here, git this into yers."
Upon my return to the city, I noted that I was asked, "Sir, may I take your order?" and, upon delivery of the meal, the waiter offered the hope that I would enjoy my meal.
I prefer the city style to the wild west pub style. In the same way, I prefer postings that are written with some care and civility. Barbarous, unlettered postings where, obviously, the writer knows no better always remind me very much of the style of that bare-foot vixen from the wild west. She meant well, I'm sure, but you wouldn't want to make her one of your work colleagues. Certainly, you wouldn't have employed her to teach English of any kind in China even if she was keen on the China experience.
Last edited by Old Dog on Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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