Job Discussion Forums

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

Its not how much agents cost schools its the fact that the money paid to agents comes out of the same budget as teacher expenses. There is no way to argue this except to say that agents get money that should go to teachers. You do not need to be a mental giant to see that, just put yourself in the position of a school owner.

When there were basically no agents, good teachers could negotiate much higher starting wages.

If you are trying to say the cost of living in Taiwan is exactly the same as in 1990, thats just a bad case of imagining the jar is half full. ie chronic denial.

Spending the money in country is a joke. You can argue that in some countries people go there for the experience but in the case of Taiwan the reputation around the world was always "it a good place to make/save money". Not "its a good place but only if you intend to spend your savings on night market sausage"!

Face facts, there are two basic reasons why wages stagnated then dropped, aside from the local economic factors which are less significant anywar so far.

1. Agent recruiting and it affects.

2. Related to the above, the advent of the internet which facilitates far more direct overseas recruiting and draws in far more teachers generally.

Thats correct there was pre-internet civilization.

When I arrived in Taiwan in 1991, there was lonely planet guides, networking, word of mouth, english language news papers, but only two then and one of the existing two didn't really count.

A taiwan beer at seven 11 was 16NT and one at a Shita area pup was basically 70-90NT.

Rent was a little cheaper than now in Taipei but much cheaper in Taichung.

Clothes like jeans were cheaper and those tasty little steaks with the egg on top with pasta was 80 NT not 150-180 or more like you see now.

Now don't turn me into a consumer guide, just take thoes as some of the examples I noticed this past year, there are endless examples.

To save the money we were saving and as easily as we were saving it you would have to make in the neighbourhood of 900NT per hour or better today.

IF you want to think that the situation has improved or maintained for teachers economically you are free to do so.

Aristotle I hope you are younger than I am because these people can really tire a person out.

/JJ

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

So, Jonjon, if you are in Canada, how is it that you supposedly know so much about local economic conditions right now? If you are not simply Aristotle smerfing (and I see no denial from you on this), why do you send support for the guy in every message you've written here? Perhaps you'd like to comment on his society and his work advisories?

I'm not going to debate the salary freeze idea. That's perhaps one of A's more lucid points. Foreign exchange is also a concern, and a valid one. Most of us don't intend to be here for life. Sooner later, we want to cash in. If the nt falls too much in comparison to US and Canadian dollars, we lose alot. Freeze? Possibly. Declines? I haven't seen that. Schools haven't dropped their wages, at least as far as I've seen. They haven't raised them, either. 600 per hour jobs are commonplace. 650 ones are little harder to come by. 700 and above? Much harder; and often what is expected in terms of time and effort for these positions makes them less worthwhile than a lesser paying job.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm with you...somewhat. Whoever you are. Word got out long ago that Taiwan is a lucrative teacher's market. Schools now have numerous applicants for positions. They aren't desperate. Expectations are higher; teachers are expected to do more and the employers aren't under pressure to raise wages. And so they don't. Numerous threads have popped up in the last couple years about wages and job availability. Go over to Forumosa.com and see a thread titled "salaries" in their English teaching forum. I'd post a link, but I admit that I'm just too lazy.

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

I know something about the current situation because I make annually visits to Taiwan. I know the past situation because I lived there for many years.

I never said anything about blank cheque endorsements for Aristotle. I did say that he seems to have some historical insight on the esl market in Taiwan and that is refreshing.

As far as his warning/adviseries are concerned, we are probably alot better off for having someone like him around than not. I understand that he has been written off by many as an alarmist, etc. fine.

I say give me more like him.

/JJ

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

What makes you think I'm new to the board? Do you think everyone who reads also posts, and on every part of the site they read?

About Aristotle now.

I still have a couple of good foreign friends in Taiwan who are teachers.

Neither of them seem too interested in the internet. Both have been in Taiwan for many years.

I have told both of them about this site and others like it. When explainig it to them I mentioned Aristotle to one of them. What he does or says he does etc. They were both very impressed and one of them was actually relieved, sort of a "finally someone..." type of attitude.

I could not remember anything specific about Aristotles postings but they loved the concept. On a later call I was able to tell one of them about a specific Aristotle posting which was a little bazarre. We had a great laugh.
He still loves the concept though.

But please, dont reconstruct your reality on my account TS. Maybe you or the majority you are self elected to represent are correct. Maybe the most useful thing we can do is tell newbies that Kaoshiung is hotter than Taoyuan.

/JJ

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

It looks like we scared Aristotle off of this part of the board anyway.

Look at my other posting on the Tai/Chi cross straight question. I am hoping to see some interesting stuff on that board.

/JJ

Pop Fly · Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Posts: 429

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

For me, it's the lack of any originality or information of any relevance in the posts made by jonjack that makes me think that he isn't who he suggests he is.

His constant mention of Aristotle in each of his posts means most likely that he is either:

a. Aristotle
b. Has an Aristotle fetish

I don't consider that this person is as he claims - just someone who supports Aristotle and finds his posts informative.

The fact is that each time Aristotle makes a post here, it is soon followed by a chorus of 'please explains' with reasons given as to why the opinion given by him is floored. Aristotle NEVER answers these concerns with anything of any substance, nor admits that he is wrong, even when it is proved that he is indeed wrong.

If jonjack is just an Aristotle groupie as he claims, then that says more about his inability to identify good information, than it does about Aristotle ability to disseminate quality information.

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

I did not know that the law regarding foreign investment in real estate

had changed in the ROC.

Unless you are flipping property through a Chinese proxy this is something

that was not possible in the past.

I would love to know the details as to how this is possible.

As far as teachers wages - in 1991 I made 1280 NT per hour which was a net pay with the 20% and of course the later reduction to 10% in taxes paid by the company.

1991 is a long time ago Clark.

Aristotle is priceless. WE sure could have used hime back then, of course the internet was unheard of relative to now and you were'nt born yet.

/JJ

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

I did not know that the law regarding foreign investment in real estate

had changed in the ROC.

Unless you are flipping property through a Chinese proxy this is something

that was not possible in the past.

I would love to know the details as to how this is possible.

As far as teachers wages - in 1991 I made 1280 NT per hour which was a net pay with the 20% and of course the later reduction to 10% in taxes paid by the company.

1991 is a long time ago Clark.

Aristotle is priceless. WE sure could have used hime back then, of course the internet was unheard of relative to now and you were'nt born yet.

/JJ

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

JonJack, I asked you to provide some evidence as to how Aristotles posts, specifically his "advisories," are anything more than scare mongering. You haven't done this, so I have to assume you have no such evidence.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

jonjack · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Canada

My wage was on the high side for esl wages.

But as I said several posts ago, the average back then was about 500

NT net. From What I see on the internet esl wages still net about the same.

So the only argument that wages are even the same would be if there has been zero inflation for 15 years, which is not the case according to the following East Asian scholars listed surname first; (1) Camilleri. Joseph A., (2) Simone. Vera, (3) Mahbubani, Kishore.

The above are not hard to find as they are widely published and you can argue you observations and interpretations of inflation with them.

But that was a nice try.

/JJ

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

Are you kidding me? I love how you just throw names out randomly. How about naming, specifically, the published works of the authors you make reference to; or, howabout quoting directly from these works or posting links to articles on the net? What was the main point of their arguments? Why do these "East Asian scholars" have names like "Camilleri" and "Simone?"

You're beginning to remind me of AKATDN. Spooky, but true.