Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

Glenski,
the clarifications you sought from me:

It seems the greatest difference between how you want to do your oral classes and how I do mine is that I give only a few students per lesson a chance at such a performance (speaking in front of the whole class) whereas you seem to prefer to give each and everyone a chance. I think this is a little stressful and overzealous. Doesn't your attention span go to the dogs by the end of the second period?
I involve my students in listening and adjudicating the quality of the speech; students must know what the speaker was talking about, and whether she or he has in fact answered the questions.
I group them so that they can help their speaker(s) go over the questions.
As for marking their performance, I am hamstrung by unwritten rules whereby they pass no matter how good they are. I try to encourage them to learn from their mistakes which I point out when they are too ingrained in their speech. I try to encourage all to do better. I am often surprised at the degree of cooperation I get - they actually do volunteer to speak provided they know they are going to get a score.

[Glenski]

[Deconstructor]

Accidental double posting. Please ignore.

[Deconstructor]

[Glenski]

Deconstructor,
Where do you teach? I just can't see that my HS kids would be all that "critical" as you suggested, or that they would even offer questions at the end of each presentation. How do you force this to happen without losing student's motivation/enthusiasm/enjoyment?

Also, you said these don't have to be taped individually, and I understand what you mean about having a group do the work, but it still amounts to me reviewing tapes of each student's performance, even in a group. So, from what I gather, the total length of tape time is still the same. Maybe even longer since you call for the audience to participate with questions, and especially since you have 5 minutes for each student's part of the presentation.

Finally, what sort of articles do you use (and source of articles)? Reuters is too high level for my kids. So are science for laymen articles from The Economist.

[Roger]

[quote="Glenski"][quote]I can't believe you actually have kids presenting in front of the whole class (successfully) in China. Like Japan, I figure they are so shy that doing such would be extremely stressful.

[quote]I
Dear Glenski,
you and I have discussed this a number of times; I want to tell you my students do what I tell them to do. Maybe the ideaq that they are "shy" is too deeply ingrained in some of us, but it is not exactly my opinion.
I believe they are lacking in self-confidence, but that mustn't be confused with "shyness". Their lack of self-confidence is culturally-induced and fostered by their communitarian teaching (everything done in unison and emulating their role-model teacher). But speaking is an individual act, and no one actually knows what any speaker is going to say.
To overcome their inhibitions I offer them the comfort zone of brainstorming in groups. When they go up to the front they feel they are going to say loudly what they were discussing more softly.
I am at odds with some who take too much stock of their perceived "shyness"; I too experienced fear in class when I was a student and I certainly wasn't the most outgoing. I can relate to their complex, but I feel as strongly that it is their duty to overcome it. In my adult classes they perform no worse than in western classes I have been to although I admit they sometimes lack style, oratory skills and charisma. But we must build on what they can do; and speak they certainly can. I ask them to focus on very precise questions or points and not to stray from the topic. In this I follow IELTS rules that require the student to speak for, say, 2 minutes at a time, using around 150 to 200 words. This week, my students have all done very well.
In the past I learnt from you, GLenski, about the pairing of students to give them maximum speaking time; I found this to be workable; but for students to actually improve their overall performance - speaking to the point, speaking to an audience, and speaking coherently and cogently, the pairing is no more than a warming-up exercise. They must learn to address a target audience, to relate to their audience and to stay on the topic. I have no insuperable difficulties doing this with my students, so I suggest you just try. I am sure you will perfect your handling of your students easily.
As for GRADING their performance and INVOLVING them in it, I don;'t really ask the students WHAT grade I should give them - I tell the whole class that the previous speaker got "70 out of 100", and then tell them how he or she could have done better. Some of those guys actually start haggling with me over their grade... but to no avail as far as I am concerned.

[Glenski]

[Glenski]

[Roger]

Dear Glenski,
specific advice? Hmmm... I am sweating now.
Let me tell you what I have done this year with university students:
I hand-pick 5 or 6 students, usually girls or boys, not both genders; note that students form little cliques and groups along the gender divide and their major subjects (I am talking about classes of mixed-background students).
Then I ask the boys to come to the front and stand in a corner, the girls in the opposite corner...
The 5 or 6 chaps then must select the appropriate number of boys and girls to form teams. For my students to select members of the opposite gender is highly entertaining all the time... but they go about it with good humour.

The effect is this:
I get new teams composed of members of both genders and of various different majors, thus their cliques get broken up.
They have to learn to communicateamong them, and for Chinese this is a bit challenging, but it has to be done. This is no cultural imperialism imposed on them - in classrooms they also have to rotate from the front to the rear, supposedly for the good for their eye sight! Thus there is a constant shifting and reforming.

Now, my students have to pick a role: one is a speaker, one is a writer and one is a proofreader. The latter is a new role I invented recently because of the calamitous state of their copying ability...
The instructions are always contained on two pieces of paper that I place on my desk. The "writer" or "secretary" must come to the front, memorise part of the instruction, walk back and jot it down. I don't allow them to bring their notepads to copy while in front of my desk...
The proofreader has to check the text for any inconsistencies and mistakes; I ask them to sign the paper.
Purpose: I want to make sure the whole team understands MY INSTRUCTIONS! You would be surprised at how much normally gets lost if you hand out photocopies! They start translating verbatim right away, which is my bane. But writing it down by themselves makes them think much harder, and I have noted a lot fewer miscommunications since adopting this procedure.
It also is an excellent method to train their holistic comprehension and to memorise whole chunks rather than single words. But results can be evaluated only over time, of course...

So, you can figure out for yourself that their next step is to discuss the instructions or the topic. I demand that someone have a dictionary so that they can help themselves if they have translational needs. Usually, one in their group always understands.
The speaker then talks in front of the class for two or three minutes, depending on circumstances. I want them to respond pointedly, concisely. I also add a few "cultural" constraints such as the need to introduce themselves properly and, in some cases, the topic.
I realise my method can be fine-tuned to satisfy other requirements. For the time being, I am highly satisfied with the results. They definitely are better than having the whole class paired up and practising along the lines of a model situation. I want my students to be more natural and spontaneous. I let them know, though, that they must submit to "foreign" arbitration - i.e. they have to accept criteria they may consider alien to them. However, I can tell you some of my students actually do prod their peers on, some tell them "to speak up" or "to speak more clearly". I don't have to say much - that's the best of it.
I hope, GLenski, you find my idea adaptable to your particular needs. Good luck
Roger

[Deconstructor]