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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Mike W wrote:
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| He was instructed to go to Hong Kong with a specific set of documents, which he duly did. On arrival in Hong Kong, he was refused a 'Z' visa, because one document the Hong Kong officials required was no longer issued by the Beijing PSB as it was now deemed unnecessary by the Beijing Municipal Government. |
I believe Chris-Crossley was addressing the problem Mike mentioned, above. While interesting, this situation doesn't raise the question posed in this thread, which is,
May a school employ a foreign teacher, and invite him to enter to work, on an F visa, under the following, narrow conditions:
1) the school is licensed to employ foreign teachers;
2) the prospective foreign teacher meets the minimum standards for a foreign expert, as set forth in the SAFEA Guidelines; and,
3) the offer of employment is for less than six months.
Mike W also wrote:
"... the Chinese Central Government say it is illegal to work for pay on a 'F' visa..."; and, "My information came from the Chinese consulate website in the UK." [Mike, perhaps you'd better quote for us the portions of that website which say its illegal to work on an F visa. I looked at it and found no language to that effect.]
Clark W. Griswald wrote:
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| It seems to me that you are suggesting that an 'F' visa must be legal as no-one has been able to produce any evidence to the contrary. |
I appreciate that you may have actually read what I quoted from Chinese Law regarding the F visa and its relation to work in China. I continue to be cautious about reaching conclusions- as I've said on this thread- simply considering the question "open".
But, it's not the case that the inference- working, short-term, on F visas may be lawful- is based on an "absence" of Chinese Law prohibiting it. Instead, it is based on the numerous excerpts from Chinese Law that I've referred to on this thread, which only make sense when read in the context that, for short-term work, the F visa was intended to be the vehicle for getting people into the country. (Important in this consideration is the fact that, according to provisions of Chinese Law, a Z visa is not available for one who is contracted to work for less than six months.)
Likewise, the fact that official websites speak of obtaining an FEC- after entry on an F, or Z visa- is an interesting piece of the puzzle. Quoting from a section of the SAFEA website provided by tw-
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| The Foreign Expert Certificate is one of the necessary formalities for the foreign experts who are going to work in China, after their entry on F, or Z visas. |
I see the Chinese Law as providing the range of options open to the administrators in how they handle these issues. Whether they choose to exercise the full range of options available to them is a decision they must make, from time to time, and from case to case.
Last edited by Volodiya on Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
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It is true that the business visa is a legal document for employment as teacher if your stint doesn't exceed 6 months. This emerges from the collection of laws contained in the GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN TEACHERS (2003).
It doesn't, however, specify WHO IS TO ISSUE THESE VISAS.
If you are based at home then obviously, it would be the Chinese embassy or consulate that grants you such a visa provided you produce relevant credentials and the invitation letter.
But I have some doubts as to whether each and every CHinese consulate is empowered to issue you with such a visa for the stated purpose of accepting a teaching position. Fact is that visa types vary from one jurisdiciton to another.
I suppose those 'F' type visas are valid as work visas if they are issued by the local PSB who, after all, can best determine that your employer is a legitimate would-be hirer of a FT.
If you go to HONG KONG you can get a business visa easily - but it won't confer upon you legal status since it will be issued by the "Guangdong P.S.B." (that's what it says on those visas) and these guys don't ask for supporting evidence. Their office is, as far as I know, in SHENZHEN. The issuance of business visas by the Shenzhen PSB is a pruely commercial operation. Anyone qualifies. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Roger, please look at the guidelines you have and, if they differ in any way from those we've been relying on in this thread, will you please quote those sections you are relying on in reaching your conclusions?
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A visa of any type is permission to enter the country. For teachers, a visa, even a Z visa, is not enough authority to permit you to live and work in China. For those who would work here as teachers, after entry they must then be processed for, and receive, the Foreign Expert Certificate, and the Residence Permit for Foreigners. (The SAFEA guideline portion from the official, Chinese Language website provided to us by tw was significant because it spoke of the employee receiving an FEC after entry on an F visa. It went on to say that the FEC was a prerequisite for receiving the Residence Permit for Foreigners.)
Once in the country, and being in possession of these two documents, a teacher could continue to live and work in China, never having again to get a visa, if he could maintain an unbroken string of contracts for employment, coupled with the renewal, or re-issuance, of these two documents, as I have done, to date. This would be the case, regardless of which visa he had originally entered on- the visa becoming irrelevant once the teacher's status in the country is approved, and documented, by the issuance of the FEC and the RPF.
Last edited by Volodiya on Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:45 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Purely anecdotal personal experience;
-Before my first visit to China I went to get an 'F' visa from the Chinese Embassy in London, I was given an unofficial school letter of invitation, they knew how I would be working and a senior manager approved my visa.
-At the airport I was asked what I would be doing in China, I not knowing that working on a F visa was possibly of questionable legality again said 'teaching' no problem.
-I signed on at local Gong An station to say I was living in China.
-The police came to visit me at the school which had no permission to employ foreigners, and said nothing.
If working on an F visa was really in practical terms illegal why would at all levels of government an 'F' visa seem to be satisfactory?
I'm not going to suggest that working on an F visa is ideal, and having the rights that come with a 'Residency Permit for Foreigners' and a 'Foreign Expert Certificate' is much more desirable.
Previously some have suggested that working on the 'F' is highly illegal, but I believe this is partly due to snobbery. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Taishan wrote:
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| -The police came to visit me at the school which had no permission to employ foreigners, and said nothing. |
I'm happy for anybody who doesn't get into hot water with the law, in China.
But, for those on this thread who are trying to sort out the issues raised by working on an F visa, this kind of thing (no offense meant) represents an aberration which doesn't add to the useful body of knowledge. |
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Zero Hero
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Taishan wrote: |
| The police came to visit me at the school which had no permission to employ foreigners, and said nothing. |
There is a word for this, and it is 'corruption'. They "said nothing" as money did the talking.
Working illegally is nothing to be proud of. |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: Foreign student chased out of primary school |
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| Zero Hero wrote: |
| Taishan wrote: |
| The police came to visit me at the school which had no permission to employ foreigners, and said nothing. |
There is a word for this, and it is 'corruption'. They "said nothing" as money did the talking.
Working illegally is nothing to be proud of. |
The primary school I worked at for one year in Wuhan made the mistake of hiring a full-time foreign student at its kindergarten section. Under the rules for foreigners ("aliens" in the official parlance) working in China, a foreigner can be either a worker or a student on a full-time basis, but not both at the same time.
The PSB came, and the foreign student suddenly found her employment terminated. However, since the school had a "reputation" in the city (that is, well-to-do parents sent their kids there and paid extra to have FTs teach them English), it escaped being fined.
As a result, though, some of us FTs working there, including yours truly, found ourselves being "persuaded" (for extra pay) to take some of the classes until the end of term. (Not one FT per class, thank goodness; the workload was distributed between us.) |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Volodiya wrote: |
Taishan wrote:
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| -The police came to visit me at the school which had no permission to employ foreigners, and said nothing. |
I'm happy for anybody who doesn't get into hot water with the law, in China.
But, for those on this thread who are trying to sort out the issues raised by working on an F visa, this kind of thing (no offense meant) represents an aberration which doesn't add to the useful body of knowledge. |
Taishan's opinion that he was ILLEGAL is awaiting VERIFICATION. He says he had to register at the local PSB - thus he was NOT an II, or os it would seem to me. How does he know he was working "illegally"?
The only reason in his case could be if he had been working there for more than 6 months.
My 2003 edition GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN EXPERTS has the following excerpts from relevant law sources:
"4. How many types of visas are offered in China?"
It listes a number of visas including D, F, X, Z. L, G, C, J 1 and J 2 types. For the purpose of SEEKING EMPLOYMENT in China, only the F and Z visas apply. So here are the provisions:
"(4) Visa F is issued to those who come to China to visit, T E A C H , do business, or for cultural, scientifici or technological exchanges F O R L E S S T H A N 6 M O N T H S . "
(Highlighted by me).
Anyone interested to know what the VISA Z is meant for, pay attention to this short description:
"(2) Visa Z is issued to those who come to work in China and their accompanying family members."
The rest is interpretation by ourselves:
A work visa is needed for anyone in China who is in paid employment - i.e. engineers (such as those from Germany working at AUDI or VW companies in Shanghai and CHangchun) or chefs (such as the Swiss chef at the Garden Hotel in Guangzhou) - or some of us TEFLers.
The 'F' visa is issued NORMALLY (or so it would appear, judging by the law excerpts quoted above) to FTs working in China for a MAXIMUM of 6 months. Anyuthing longer - you probably need a work visa (type 'Z').
Disclaimer: I am not at all sure whether my interpretation is on safe ground; to me it would seem that only your employer can CHOOSE the visa type; if he chooses an 'F' visa then he 8is choosing the 6 month term for you, and that should be reflected in your contract. If you have signed a one-year contract then he should obtain for you a 'Z' visa, or rather: since the change of rules he must now obtain a formal resident's permit sticker for one year. THese stickers must be issued by the PSB; if you are abroad I guess you still need a 'Z' visa to come to China (maybe an 'F' visa does the trick too), then you register with the PSB and get a resident's permit stuck into your passport. There is no 'F' or 'Z' there. These new resident's stickers are not covered by my GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT since this edition was issued 2 years before the new stickers came into existence. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:41 am Post subject: |
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Roger wrote:
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| Taishan's opinion that he was ILLEGAL is awaiting VERIFICATION. He says he had to register at the local PSB - thus he was NOT an II, or os it would seem to me. How does he know he was working "illegally"? |
Taishan said his school doesn't have permission to hire foreigners. (We could doubt that he's right about that, but is there some reason why we should?)
Being registered with the PSB adds nothing in relation to the questions raised on this thread. Everyone, even tourists, are registered, in China. Failing to register is a fineable event, no matter what visa you enter on, or the purpose of your visit to China.
Roger further wrote:
| Quote: |
| A work visa is needed for anyone in China who is in paid employment - i.e. engineers (such as those from Germany working at AUDI or VW companies in Shanghai and CHangchun) or chefs (such as the Swiss chef at the Garden Hotel in Guangzhou) - or some of us TEFLers. |
This, it seems to me, is decidedly not the case. What you need to work lawfully as an FT in China is an FEC and a RPF, not a visa. Visas get you into the country. Regardless of which visa you entered on- whether F, Z, or other- to remain in China to live and work as an FT, you would have to be processed for an FEC and a RPF.
Last edited by Volodiya on Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:31 am Post subject: |
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As said in a couple of other threads, Roger has turned his coat on this issue - yes, I am a turncoat.
I am saying now WORKING ON AN 'F' VISA C A N BE LEGAL.
Note that I added the little modal verb 'can'...
If you get an invitation letter and are asked to apply for a business visa then do it, and the consulate alone will decide that you are legal (oor otherwise).
In the GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN EXPERTS... the relevant portion of law clearly states that both 'F' and 'Z' visas are valid for teaching positions in China.
You might care to know why there are 2 visas. THe Guide doesn't clarify this but it does offer this:
- Work visas are available to anyone who hold a remunerated position in China.
- Business visas can be issued to TEACHERS who come to work for a maximum of 6 months.
THis seems to be the only legally-relevant difference between the two visa types.
I would guess that the 'F' visa for teachers must be issued in country (by the PSB), not by an agent abroad or in Hong Kong. (Agents do not "issue" as such a visa but they act as go-betweens between you and a consulate; the consulate would prefer to deal with foreign jobseekers in person).
In my opinion, all those guys that flit to Hong Kong to get a business visa through a travel agent there are not legitimate and legal teachers and residents, and in most cases they probably won't get a resident's permit and a Foreign Expert's Certificate.
If you do get the latter two documents you are probably fully legal. ANd, as I said before, only the local PSB can determine whether you are worthy of their F visa for the purpose of teaching - they must know whether your employer has the legal right to hire FTs.
Another sticking point might be that you may not get a scond F visa subsequent to the expiry of the first. this is pure speculation, though, as I do not know this for a fact.
In any case, the hiring company or school MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF A LICENCE to employ FTs. You can ask your employer if he has such a licence! The GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT lists sevral hundred employers and allows you to see their licence numbers! |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:45 am Post subject: "F" and "L" visas are OK even if one has |
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Below is a section from the bilingual Terms and Conditions documentation supplied to each applicant to my current school:
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FIRST ENTRY VISA首次入境签证
The first entry visa will be a Tourist or Business Visa with single entry validity issued by the Chinese Embassy or Consulate in the country of residence of the Employee；This will be obtained with assistance from the Company.
首次入境签证是由雇员所属国的中国大使馆或领事馆签发的一次合法入境旅行或商务签证，该签证将由公司协助取得。
Documents needed in order to apply for a tourist or business visa:
申请旅行或商务签证所需的文件
- Letter of invitation to China
- 到中国的邀请函
- Employee�s passport with required validity period
- 雇员的护照有效期符合要求
- Completed visa application form together with a passport photograph
- 填写完整的签证申请表以及一张护照照片。
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Hence, a tourist or a business visa is perfectly OK to enter China with if one intends to work here at this school, so it must be the case that "F" and "L" visas must be good for all would-be and current TEFLers wanting to come to China.
If one is in China already, of course, the "letter of invitation to China" is essentially replaced by a letter from the school authorising the employment of the would-be employee, and the school takes care of all the documentation, including the Foreign Expert Certificate (FEC) and the Residence Permit for Foreigners (RPF). |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: |
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On this other thread,
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=28537
the OP, who is in his home country, informed us that his school had sent him documents to apply for an F visa, saying the local authorities now recommended that for those who were coming to teach in Hebei Province.
We'll be waiting to hear what happens with this poster; as well as to the two Deezy spoke of, who had been requested by the local authorities to come over, on F visas, to work in Shangdong Province. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:34 am Post subject: |
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I. I have, from time to time, reminded readers that I consider the question- whether you can properly enter on an F visa to accept short-term employment- to be "open". The reason for my hesitancy in reaching conclusions has been that, while Chinese Law seems to provide for entry on F visas to accept short-term employment, I'm aware of no case in which an FT, having entered on an F visa, has been provided an FEC and RPF, after taking up their short-term employment, eventhough I've been following these forums for about a year and a half.
[In setting yourself up to work, lawfully, in China, there are, at a minimum, three stages involved- contracting to work with a qualified employer; getting a visa (if you're abroad); then, getting documented, in country, to live and work.]
There are, at present, at least the three FTs I mentioned in my previous post who, having obtained F visas as part of the process of taking up employment, are now, or soon will be, in country. (Perhaps before long we'll start getting some information on how it goes with them.)
II. I have, for some time, considered the FEC and the RPF combination of documents as the intended, minimum documentation for living and working, in China. I have neither heard, nor read, anything to the contrary. But, just as Chinese Law makes a distinction between short and long term employment (the Z visa being available, for instance, only to those who contract "long-term"), there may also be a distinction, unknown to me, regarding the appropriate documentation to work, short-term, following entry on an F visa.
As I rely on a combination of a reading of Chinese Law and factually based, detailed reports from our posters in reaching conclusions, if anybody out there has had an experience with some form of documenting an FT to work, short-term, in China (other than by the FEC and RPF), please let us know about it. |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm happy for anybody who doesn't get into hot water with the law, in China.
But, for those on this thread who are trying to sort out the issues raised by working on an F visa, this kind of thing (no offense meant) represents an aberration which doesn't add to the useful body of knowledge. |
This isn't an aberration this is a consistant report from many FT's.
Volodiya the law in China is a grey area, yes?
So your assertation that working on a 'F' visa is illegal is madness, you are trying to make black and white out of grey, this simply doesn't work.
You can try to read the rule book, but personal first-hand experiences do count.
Would I suggest that anyone ever work on an 'F' visa? Absolutely not work on the a work permit obviously.
If you work on a tourist visa the cops will go crazy if they find out, but on a 'F' visa they are much more relaxed. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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(Taishan, I'm sorry if my comment about your situation being an "aberration" caused you any offense. In that comment, I wasn't speaking about your working on an F visa, but about the fact you said you were working for a school that did not have permission to hire foreigners, yet the police took no action. That was the possible aberration I was referring to.)
Taishan wrote:
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| So your assertation that working on a 'F' visa is illegal is madness. |
Did I say that? What I tried to do was make it clear that I consider the question "open".
Taishan, those who have read my posts know I never condemn anyone for working as FTs- it's ultimately their business whether their status is legal, or illegal. I concern myself with the Chinese Law out of interest and for the sake of those who care to know what constitutes working legally, in China.
Here, as in many parts of the world, many (perhaps a majority), work as FTs without the documentation necessary to be classified as working legally. Often, they do this by choice and, from time to time, they post here, explaining the advantages they see in that kind of arrangement. [However, this is not, in itself, enough for me to conclude it is permissible to work, short-term, with no documentation other than an F visa; but, I'm sure you now understand I'm not saying it isn't enough, either- just that the question is "open", in my mind].
Taishan also wrote:
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| ...personal first-hand experiences do count. |
I agree with you, 100%. That's why I rely extensively on the reports of the posters. Their experiences often represent a validating test of our interpretations of the law.
What I'm trying to do now, is fill a gap in the information that's been developed here, to see if there are those who have been documented with an FEC and an RPF, after entering on an F visa; or, if there is some other procedure, and accompanying documentation, they've experienced- leading to their being documented to work in China, short-term. |
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