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True Dreamer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Land of the Sand
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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Good thing you rested it as you didn't actually have one... her first post was very clear...
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Welcome indeed to this heated discussion VS. It is an honour to have someone as intellectual as you on board.
However, I have to disagree with you..... twice! I did have a case and her first post wasn't very clear at all.
I am and foremost always in the look out for the truth and nothing but the truth. So my case was.... Hypocrisy of some of the Westerners in the Gulf. This is my case and it is a big one. (Some) Westerners in the gulf on big fat cheques (not all I must say but quite a few) would say something infront of their GENEROUS employer and once they fall out with them.... they will put a different face. It is hypocrisy VS.... on the largest scale!
I am sure VS, you would ageree with me, that Bradley either didn't have the knowledge of Saudi Arabia before he went there and signed the 5 figure salary or he did (it can't be either). If it is the latter, then he is - in my opinion - the father of all hypocrites!! How could you go to a country that persecutes Christians, Jews and non-Wahhabis 
If he THEN discovered that Al-Saud ARE indeed the most corrupt family and Wahhabis persecutes Christians, Jews and non-Wahhabis and on top of that he meraculasoulsly discovered that Saudi Arabia is the land of TERRORISM, OIL and FUNDAMENTALISM.... then why on earth did he CONTINUE to live there?! Pretty bizarre don't you think?
This is my case.... then the second part of your statement was that CLEOPATRA was very clear from the beginning... I beg to disagree again! It could be due to my lack of knowing the ins and outs of what she was getting at.... but I am sure if you look back at her reply, you'll see a link to Bradley the BIGOT and the encouragement to read the book which for me was a direct indication that she has read the book. When I discovered otherwise, I retracted my question to her.
I am glad that you have an interest in this part of the world - exactly as I do - and I am sure that a prominent lady of Davescafe as intellectual as you would surly enlighten all of us - including Qatarchic- on the outcome of your reading of this precious book. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Can you please point out (exact quote please) just where I encouraged anyone to read Bradley's book? Thanks!
You don't seem terribly skilled at reading what people actually write, but if you had read my post, you'd have seen that I was referring specifically to having read some of Bradley's articles from the website I posted.
On what do YOU base your opinion of Bradley's journalism BTW? Simply on the fact that he used to earn a good living in KSA but has now started to write critically of that country? As I have said at least twice above, I do agree that Bradley's turn-about raises questions as to his journalistic integrity. And, as anyone familiar with my posts on this board knows, I certainly get annoyed at all those ex-pats who spend their lives moaning about the rag-heads, while enjoying a lifestyle they could never aspire to in Manchester or Melbourne. That said, I certainly don't believe that the simple fact of having once lived well in a country means that you can never write or say anything critical about it at any time in the future. If that sort of thinking prevailed, we would never have had the benefit of, for example, some revealing exposes by ex-CIA operatives or Bush administration staffers.
By all means criticise Bradley for his apparantly sudden "change of heart". Bear in mind, however, that being opportunistic and lacking in integrity does not neccessarily make one a "bigot" (or even a "BIGOT").[/quote] |
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True Dreamer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Land of the Sand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Boy...did I open Pandora�s box?!! Cleopatra, VS, and Qatarchic .... ! 
Any way Cleopatra... here is what you asked me to prove "exact quotes":
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| it does seem that he's fairly well-informed and seeks to give a balanced view. |
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Given the incredible amount of misinformation that has circulated about Saudi Arabia over the past few years, it's just possible that Bradley may have more to contribute than most. |
I hope that the above are satisfactory to your request.
This is on one hand on another hand .... please allow me to contribute some of Brdaley's "fantabulous" insight into the hidden future!
Q: The Saudis have quietly announced that they don't believe the U.S. will be their primary arms supplier in the coming decades. Are they anticipating a split with the U.S.? Is the U.S.-Saudi relationship salvageable?
BRADLEY: In the long-term I predict an invasion by the U.S. military of Eastern Province to secure the oil fields there. The plans are there, drawn up. The invasion would take a matter of hours; all that is needed is a certain number of forces to occupy all the strategic positions......I have no doubt that the Shia-majority in the Eastern Province would welcome an American invasion, as would the indigenous Sunni minority in that region. However, the imported Wahhabi Sunnis would put up fierce resistance, and they would have to be located immediately and effectively ethnically cleansed because they would form the core of a
massive local insurgency. I'm not advocating this, by the way; merely suggesting what might have to be done should the situation come about.
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Absolutely rubbish and sci-fi predictions baseless of any found facts or common sense!!
This is only the tip of the iceberg of the insanity of this BIGOT and lunacy! To give more hilarious quote from this (paedophile) man ... here is an answer on why do WAHHABIS have control in Saudi Arabia!!
Q: Why do Saudis feel more able to denounce the Wahhabi establishment than the Al-Saud itself?
JOHN R. BRADLEY: The Al-Saud made a pact with the founder of Wahhabism, Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhab, in the eighteenth century, and that pact has lasted for 250 years -- a hell of a lot longer than the much coveted 60-year-old Saudi-US alliance. They depend on one another now for their survival now as much as they always have.
Initially, the deal was that, as the Al-Saud conquered territory using the Wahhabi foot soldiers known as the �ikhwan� or brotherhood, the ikhwan were rewarded with the loot. Obviously, when the whole of the country now known as Saudi Arabia was finally established in the 1930s, and Ibn Saud declared himself king, the rewards for his partners had to be proportional.
Hence the Al-Saud rewarding the zealots by gradually giving them effective control over of the judiciary, the media, the schools, the mosques, and the people themselves in the form of the religious police. Such a set up had the advantage, for the Al-Saud, of also creating the mechanisms of a totalitarian state, which would keep in line the people they had conquered -- people, as I try to show in my book, who come from different religious, regional and tribal backgrounds and who historically for the most part were not Wahhabis.
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I have lived for a year and a half in Saudi Arabia ..... I met so many Saudis from all walks of life and NON of them ever mentioned to me the historical LOOTINGS given to the zealots WAHABIS and the control of virtually everything in Saudi Arabia according to Mr. Bradley! In fact, I noticed the opposite ! The media in Saudi Arabia has always been criticised for having some shows that religious people don't like... or for having music or even women presenters in the famous new satellite channel AL-IKHBARIYYAH.... on top of that, satellites which religious figures denounce all the times on top of other stuff are ripe in Saudi Arabia. So where is this so called control given to the WAHHABIS or religious people?!
I must say after all of this lengthy and tiring discussion, I am glad that at least we agree on one thing and that is hypocrisy that stains some westerners when their "generous" employer decide to end their contracts. And it is not the same as an ex-CIA .... it is quite different. Bradley was praising Saudi Arabia and saying many GOOD stuff about it... what happened there Bradley?! Did you see a vision at night?? Were you blindfolded or oppressed or even forced to say those sweet words about Saudi Arabia?!! Or was it because you are a filthy paedophile that I would never let my teenage students come close within 100 yards - and you are using a backlash at Saudi Arabia for exposing your sick and dirty habits??
..... forgive me colleagues.... I need a rest.... will continue the debate later  |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope that the above are satisfactory to your request. |
Weak.
If saying someone may have "fairly balanced and informative views" amounts to "encouraging people to read his book", then your understanding of the English language is different from mine.
Regarding the quotes from Bradley, the one about the US invading KSA to "secure" the oil fields, and in particular the part about Shia Saudis "welcoming" them, is ridiculous and stupid, but it should also be pointed out that Bradley specifically says he is not advocating such actions. (It should also be said that recently de-classified papers show that the US did seriously consider invading KSA after the 1973 oil shock).
However, I don't see what's so objectionable, let alone "bigoted" about the second quote. The story of how the Al Saud alligned themselves with Al Wahhab, and of how that alliance mutated into the tacit "power sharing" deal which has always been at the heart of the Saudi system, is in no way new and is in fact basic knowledge to anyone with the smallest clue about Saudi history.
| Quote: |
| I met so many Saudis from all walks of life and NON of them ever mentioned to me the historical LOOTINGS given to the zealots WAHABIS |
So? Have you also noticed how terrible history teaching is in KSA? Has it ever occured to you that many Saudis actually aren't terribly well-informed about their own country's past?
| Quote: |
| So where is this so called control given to the WAHHABIS or religious people?! |
I find it bizarre that someone who has lived in KSA for over a year can even ask such a question. Where is the control? Well, for starters look at the legal system, run according to the strictest interpretation of Sharia law. Presumably you're a teacher, so you'll know just how extreme is the influence of deeply conservative Islamic teaching in the "education" system. Have you ever gone shopping? Have you noticed that all shops must close for prayers 5 times a day? Have you ever seen the stickers placed over the faces of women on boxes of hair colour? The extreme censorship of the media (albeit not extreme as it once was)? Has the way women are dressed not made an impression on you? Have you ever paused to ask yourself why the sexes are so completely segregated?
In other words, has it never once - just once - occured to you that the religious establishment influence just about every single aspect of Saudi life, from the judicial system to the availability of fashion magazines? True, their power is not quite so strong as it was only a few years ago, but to deny that it exists is to be in denial of a glaringly obvious reality.
If you can't see that, I very much doubt that anything I or anyone else can say could possibly change your mind. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| QatarChic wrote: |
VS- Well when you eventually read it, please give us ur thoughts  |
You may have a long wait as I am a cheapskate and first it has to hit the remainder/sale racks. 
VS |
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AcidBurn
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| He was also a frequent poster on this forum. |
Really?!? What was his username? |
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Sand Trapped
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| True Dreamer wrote: |
If he THEN discovered that Al-Saud ARE indeed the most corrupt family and Wahhabis persecutes Christians, Jews and non-Wahhabis and on top of that he meraculasoulsly discovered that Saudi Arabia is the land of TERRORISM, OIL and FUNDAMENTALISM.... then why on earth did he CONTINUE to live there?! Pretty bizarre don't you think? |
My best guess would be that he stayed for the money. The same reason many others do.
Is that bizarre? Nah.
Is that reality? Yeah.
I plead guilty to that myself--I was there for four years, though there's no doubt in my mind that those statements about the Saudis are true.
I went there to teach English for a high salary. KSA's intrinsic political and economic characteristics didn't factor into my decision to work there at the time (though they do now).
If the allusions in this thread to the revelations in his book about KSA are accurate, then I hope his book is a bestseller. I think I'll buy it--new. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
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He used to post on this forum when it still had the old format. Remember that ?
He used his real name. |
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True Dreamer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Land of the Sand
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Weak?! .... says you!
How would someonelike me - it seems lower ability in your opinion - understand the following sentence relating to THIS thread : "it's just possible that Bradley may have more to contribute than most." ..... is that weak understanding to encourage people to read Bradley's book Cleopatra..... guess not!
Now let's get down to the nitty gritty bits that you mentioned..... first of all... I am not sure if you are a muslim or not.... not that it concerns me or it bothers me... just asking to find out if you do understand what is and what is NOT "strict shariah law" .... you might be a well informed intelligent and intellectual non-muslim, however, I personally don't see the credibility of any non-muslim to argue about "the strictest shariah law".... who decides that Cleopatra? Is it you? Is it the Shia'a Imams? Is it the Sofi Imaams? Is it the WAHHABI Imams?! Who decides that?
And yes... I did see that the shops are forced to close five times a day.... but to be totally honest, I did NOT find anything wrong with that or "STRICTIST" shari'a law in that at all especially if you bear in mind that Saudi Arabia is religiously oriented just like Iran, Israel, US and many others... I might be wrong in thinking this way, however, I am reflecting my opinions on what I see in front of me. And I didn't see anything strict about that.... mind you, you may have a different view but that again can only be argued if you have studied the sharia'a laws and discovered for yourself what is and what is NOT a strict rule.
Glad we agreed on the bit on invasion of the US troops to the eastern province that it is ridiculous and stupid. Even if he does not support it or condone it, it is still stupid!
Describing him as a bigot does NOT relate merely to the second sentence that I quoted�. it is to everything this man has suddenly unleashed about Saudi Arabia.
And I am sorry Cleopatra� it seems to me that you only read certain books on the history of Saudi Arabia�. Al-Saud didn�t just aligned with �Al-Abdul-Wahhab� (not Al-Wahhab by the way!)�. They aligned themselves with Al-Qahtan, Al-Otaibi, Al-Sudairi and many others as well�. This is not to mention that the THIRD kingdom that King Abdul-Aziz has created in the 1925 had more that 20 families aligned with him when he united the whole of the peninsula.
Have you noticed how terrible history teaching in Saudi Arabia is?! No, I didn�t, I was actually impressed with it! Sorry, am I missing something here? Saudi Arabia has history as an obligatory subject taught in schools� so how come history teaching is terrible again Cleopatra?!
�Have you ever seen the stickers placed over the faces of women on boxes of hair colour? The extreme censorship of the media (albeit not extreme as it once was)? Has the way women are dressed not made an impression on you? Have you ever paused to ask yourself why the sexes are so completely segregated?�
Not sure what is the exact point here? Is it to prove to me that the WAHHABIS did this or is it to CRITICISE the situation, or is it a combination of both?
If it is the last two, then I will never prove my point to you, and nor will you either. If it is the first, then please refer to my question where it is discussing how literate are you in the sharia laws and whether it was the WAHHABIS who enforced this or the religious techings in general....
�If you can't see that, I very much doubt that anything I or anyone else can say could possibly change your mind.�
Why? Why do you � or anyone else � want to change my mind? And for that reason, why do I want to change your mind in the first place? I thought we are having a civilized discussion here� we are teachers after all not political opponents! You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine�. And just to remind you Cleopatra�. I am not arguing here about the credibilitiy (facts or lies for that matter) that Bradley may have included in his book� they may all be true� but why now?! Why at this particular time where he is accused of paedophilia�. And why couldn�t he resign earlier if what he has mentioned is true?! One answer I like to these questions is what Sand Strapped said� it is money! It can make wonders for you and even worse as one of my American friend�s sinister opinion, can buy many people�s opinions! |
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Mark100
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I remember his posts and they created quite a lot of controversy.
His articles for the Arab News were a joke and for me he has very little credibility.
A far better read on Saudi would be Sleeping with the Enemy by Robert Baer the ex CIA operative. |
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True Dreamer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Land of the Sand
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for that Mark100. Could you give us a summary of this book (I'm sure Qatarchic will be interested ) |
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Sea Sea Rider
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Dilmun
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: My Book |
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I've written a revealing book. "Behind the Whiteboard: An insiders look at Saudi Arabia, a country where it's bad but really folks, it's not THAT bad."
Can't find a publisher. Wonder why? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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When he posted on the old-style forum he was always reiterating that of all the expats ever in Saudi Arabia, he and only he, JOHN R. BRADLEY was the ONLY one who REALLY UNDERSTOOD Saudi Arabia.
He is and was an arrogant self-opinionated pain-in-the-neck.
A bit like scot47 !
As for the contingency plans to invade Eastern region, generals have contingency plans for invading everywhere. What d o you think these soldiers do all day ? They have contingency plans for the invasion of the Isle of Man ! It does not mean that they ever seriously consider it ! |
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QatarChic
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: Qatar
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| True Dreamer wrote: |
| Thank you for that Mark100. Could you give us a summary of this book (I'm sure Qatarchic will be interested ) |
erm I think I'll pass  ...I prefer lighter reading  |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: KSA literature |
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Why do we have to discuss the literary works of others here? Why not make our own contributions?
Here's mine, a poem which I grant is a bit short, but I am sure that in this case the brevity will be greatly appreciated by all
Ode on the Abdication of an Arabian King:
Saud
Bowed.
Any more contribs? |
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