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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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This really brings us back to the old debate about whether teaching is an art or a science... can it even be taught in a classroom or is it just that some of us have the ability to 'teach.' in spite of, rather than because of, our educations.
But, nobody cares what we think about it. The only ones who matter are those that make the employment rules, and they tend to be obsessed with degrees and pieces of paper.
A problem that one finds in many fields, not just education.
VS |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| This really brings us back to the old debate about whether teaching is an art or a science... can it even be taught in a classroom or is it just that some of us have the ability to 'teach.' in spite of, rather than because of, our educations. |
People respond to other people, and good teachers have good interpersonal skills. You have to connect with others, to see what they think they need, to see what they really do need, and to make decisions about the best way to get them those things. You have to be able to guide them to make good decisions about their own goals, and if they don't have well defined goals, help them to hone them.
I don't believe there is any hard boundry between art and science. The formalization of teaching, the minute analysis of everything that happens in a classroom is part of our problem. Lots of structure is comforting for teachers and students, but it is not conducive to either learning or teaching, yet it is the structuring that many people regard as "real teaching".
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| But, nobody cares what we think about it. The only ones who matter are those that make the employment rules, and they tend to be obsessed with degrees and pieces of paper. |
In the public sector, no one wants to take responsibility for anything, and the final line of defense it that so and so is "qualified".
Where I work, once teachers are hired they are let loose in classrooms and not very closely supervised - not supervised at all. People are let go as a result of personal disputes with colleagues more frequently than they are dismissed because of their incompetence as teachers or indifference toward students. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: Dismissals |
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In the Gulf, people are sadly fired far more often for getting on the wrong side of someone in authority, or for having had a dispute with a colleague favoured by those in authority, than for incompetence. Indeed, I have only ever heard of one person being fired for gross incompetence, and that was after a bad situation went through "worse", "diabolical" and eventually ended up somewhere beyond "intolerable for all".
Many people in management in Gulf institutions are themselves incompetent, and are in those positions because of wasta. They know absolutely nothing about running an educational institution, and have a third-world fascination with western trappings. Those trappings include paper-qualifications - PhDs, MAs et al. They judge on form, not substance, and in their ignorance, fail to recognize real indicators of ability to do a job. Often, they cannot even recognise a bad teacher or other professional, and are indeed open to being fooled by unscrupulous individuals who know how to play the game of flattery.
A lot of the problem with mid-east management is that frequently, otherwise inadequate individuals whose ONLY merit is a senior degree such as MA or PhD, find themselves in power in Gulf institutions. In order to justify their own positions of power, and their "qualifications", they attach inordinate levels of (utterly undeserved) merit to those particular pieces of paper.
Let us not forget that essentially, most of the Gulf is a third-world region with lots of money. This is not to detract in any way from the advantages of living there, or from the people themselves who have many qualities that the west is losing. However, let us not be naive enough to expect management practices or ethics, such as we would take for granted in the developed parts of the world.
What is especially infuriating from the point of view of a principled, committed expat working there, whether a teacher or otherwise, and wishing to help in the development of the region, is that many of the local practices are highly self-destructive and are preventing many countries in the region, e.g. KSA, from properly developing. The Wasta system in KSA is a case in point, as is the insistence on giving students high-marks whether merited or not.
The obsession with paper-quals that are not necessarily appropriate, is another. Hiring someone with for example, an MA in Archaeology or Popular Culture and two years' Asian conversation experience to teach English, over someone with a DELTA and ten years' other-Gulf experience, is beyond comprehension but is frequently the reality of practice. It is, in a sense, like giving preference to an engineer, or even an architect or lawyer, to fix a car, over a qualified mechanic!
I must say that in this regard, KSA is among the better places, as the MoHE there is still more concerned with relevant experience than with paper-quals. Unfortunately, this is not so in many of the Lower Gulf States, and may to an extent have a lot to do with the greater, perceived desirability of living there. Put another way, they have far more applicants to choose from. However, this doesn't explain why they would prefer a PhD over a DELTA. Having better qualified applicants to choose from is one thing; choosing those who are not by any means the best qualified, is another.
Still, all we can do is our best. There's no point in losing sleep over it all. The Crusades ended a thousand years ago...and look what happened to those guys!!!!
Happy Eid hols to those of us lucky enough to be on such.  |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject: "Crusades" |
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Just realised something: my reference to the Crusades in my previous posting might be taken to have some religious significance. If so, I apologise, there was none whatsoever intended. What I meant was, there's no point in making it a 'crusade", trying to change bahavioural patterns in relation to business, management, or education in Gulf countries. NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION!!
I sincerely hope no-one took any offence.
To all my Muslim friends in the Gulf and elsewhere, Mrs. Bebsi and I extend our best wishes for Eid.
Now, I'm off back to join in the party so-to-speak, and not worry for another 8 days about teaching, or indeed anything work-related.  |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Dismissals |
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| Bebsi wrote: |
| Many people in management in Gulf institutions are themselves incompetent, and are in those positions because of wasta. |
Locally known as "vitimine waw". Here it is waining, and talking about it publicly weakens it.
King Faisal is reported to have said he could deal with anything in Saudi Arabia, but wasta. He overthrew his brother, abolished slavery, told Nixon to "go drink from the sea" and placed an oil embargo on the West, but he could not make a dent in wasta.
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| A lot of the problem with mid-east management is that frequently, otherwise inadequate individuals whose ONLY merit is a senior degree such as MA or PhD, find themselves in power in Gulf institutions. In order to justify their own positions of power, and their "qualifications", they attach inordinate levels of (utterly undeserved) merit to those particular pieces of paper. |
I doubt whether it's that deliberate. It's a cultural attitude that has become established recently, and will just as quickly fade.
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| What is especially infuriating from the point of view of a principled, committed expat working there, whether a teacher or otherwise, and wishing to help in the development of the region, is that many of the local practices are highly self-destructive and are preventing many countries in the region, e.g. KSA, from properly developing. The Wasta system in KSA is a case in point, as is the insistence on giving students high-marks whether merited or not. |
This is a complex issue. Expat teachers are more likely to feel a commitment to development than, say, expat accountants or bankers, simply because they are in constant contact with people whose lives they are supposedly shaping. It can be frustrating, especially when you do not understand well what happens here or why.
You're right, many local practices seem self-destructive, but Saudi expats in the US may have similar impressions of American administrative and social customs. To survive, you have to suspend judgement sometimes, and control the urge to morph into Albert Schweitzer - or, worse, Bruce Willis - and save the world.
If you want to solve problems, focus on your students. Many of them do have problems that you can help solve.
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| Hiring someone with for example, an MA in Archaeology or Popular Culture and two years' Asian conversation experience to teach English, over someone with a DELTA and ten years' other-Gulf experience, is beyond comprehension but is frequently the reality of practice. |
This probably would not happen in Saudi Arabia. I have had an applicant with an MA and several years' teaching experience at Brown refused because his MA was not in TESOL or Applied Linguistics. The first hurdle in hiring is with the civil service staff who interpret their own directives as strictly as they please. Academic staff are much more reasonable when assessing an applicant's qualifications.
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| I must say that in this regard, KSA is among the better places, as the MoHE there is still more concerned with relevant experience than with paper-quals. Unfortunately, this is not so in many of the Lower Gulf States, and may to an extent have a lot to do with the greater, perceived desirability of living there. |
That sounds like a good explanation. Yet, at my institution, rather than accept "less qualified" people, they just keep rejecting applications regardless of the fact that they desperately need teachers.
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Put another way, they have far more applicants to choose from. However, this doesn't explain why they would prefer a PhD over a DELTA. Having better qualified applicants to choose from is one thing; choosing those who are not by any means the best qualified, is another.
Still, all we can do is our best. There's no point in losing sleep over it all. |
That's the best recipe for survival, and sanity.
At the end of the day, it's not my country. They can do whatever they want. If someone asks me, shall I do this or that, then I'll give them an opinion. If they don't ask, that means it's none of my business. I'll just do my job as well as I can without violating my own ethics. I won't save the world. I'll leave that to Bruce. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: do the best you can |
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Do the best you can. Remember that the real 'customers' are the students who are trying to learn some English.
Do not forget that life is what you have today. Carpe diem. Strive to be happy. Do not listen to the doomspeakers and naysayers. Avoid the Pharisees (who are called 'Mutawaeen' in KSA.)
When it gets bad remember that payday is not far away. |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: "delta" |
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A delta, sir? Is't not a Grecian letter? Why, I had rather a good BA in archaeology than ever such a thing. A good rule of thumb: where acronyms are involved in the nomenclature of subjects or qualifications, one ought rather get back to High School than hope a shred of academic validity.
Qualifications are certainly not all, but the whole academic system is based upon and revolves upon formal academic accomplishment from higher places of learning that have objectively established reputations. This is the law we expect our students to follow in getting their heads down to do some study, motivated by the desire for grades and formal qualifications. It is the timewasters and timeservers who couldn't succeed at college themselves who, when they interlope into teaching, become agitators and obstacles within educational institutions. The sooner the Saudis accept this wholeheartedly, the sooner they will advance materially in an area which is of vital national importance to them, namely, that of education. Those that carp at this, should spew forth their sour grapes and enter another domain. Deltas belong in private hogwans, nowhere else.
Last edited by shadowfax on Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Yippee-ay-eeee!!!! |
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I agree with Ootii.
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| To survive, you have to suspend judgement sometimes, and control the urge to morph into Albert Schweitzer - or, worse, Bruce Willis -and save the world. |
Unfortunately, there are far too many westerners who want the mid-east to change not in a positive way for its own good, and in ITS terms, but on their terms. They assume that what is good for them and for their society is good for Arab countries, and this neo-cultural imperialism is what causes a lot of the problems. There is no room for Bruce Willis or Harrison Ford in the mid-east.
More to the point, however, I sense that these are the most unhappy and frustrated westerners/expats living there.
At the end of the day, we are hired to do a job, and in most cases, relatively well-paid for this. We can do that job to the best of our ability, and outside of that, just accept the society for what it is. If we are asked for our advice and opinions we give it. In the better institutions in KSA, in fairness, they DO value our contributions greatly. That is why they pay us what they do. This way, we can sleep at night, enjoy the long holidays and when we come home in the afternoons, just shut that door and turn on Orbit!
On an entirely different tack, I believe that King Abdullah is very much aware of the problems facing Saudi society, including Wasta. Let's hope that he is in a stronger position than his predecessors to tackle them. Economic exigencies and realities dictate that he must. |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bruce Willis and Harrison Ford are two such ikons I would not have chosen in connexion with cultural imperialism proper. And I suggest you are missing the point: it is a matter of cross-cultural intellectual exchange and influence rather than unilateral domination. If as a European and a speaker of English you are lacking in esteem and appreciation for your cultural antecedents, you are in a poor way to contribute to the exchange. This cannot be accomplished by flattery on the one side, and abasement of your own cultural and intellectual heritage on the other.
Teaching English is partly a 'science', but mostly an art. The Henry Fordist attempt to sanitize it into a bare tool of functional or technical performance is a slur against the human spirit and destined for ignominy.
The litmus test for this will come when we awake to find ourselves living in a world full of speakers and teachers of ugly, dehumanised pigeon English. This is becoming the effect of the selling of TESOL, TEFL and lingusitics as the qualifications of choice in the Middle East for language teachers.
Long live literature, history, (and even archaeology, etc.) and their ancient and proven pedigrees as the best backgrounds for teachers of English to all who wish to learn it in its true spirit, and in its most elegant and eloquent forms. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: Bird-brains? |
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| ...speakers and teachers of ugly, dehumanised pigeon English. |
I had been grossly unaware of the true capabilities, linguistic and otherwise, of certain avians, whatever the extent of humanisation or dehumanisation inherent in such abilities, and indeed, irrespective of the aesthetic merits thereof.
Should that not be "Pidgin" English?
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| The Henry Fordist attempt to sanitize it into a bare tool of functional or technical performance is a slur against the human spirit and destined for ignominy. |
Henry Ford sold a far more popular and useful product than any archaeologist ever did. And whether Shadowfax likes it or not, most learners of EFL want acquire a functional command of the language, without any inherent elements of historical, archaeological or literary appreciation.
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| Qualifications are certainly not all, but the whole academic system is based upon and revolves upon formal academic accomplishment from higher places of learning that have objectively established reputations. |
No-one is attempting to deny or even decry the validity and indeed, necessity of qualifications. We are not even even attempting to compare the merits and otherwise of different ypes of academic qualifications. We are, rather, concerned with the appropriateness of qualifications, in this case, for the task of teaching EFL/ESOL.
To use an analogy, in reference to the point of my previos postings, I would prefer to get my car fixed by a mechanic than an archaeologist, historian or poet. Indeed, I would even give the mechanic preference over an engineer. Similarly, when getting my bathroom tiled, I strongly believe a builder will do a far better job than an architect.
A large part of the problem in practical TEFL is that many tend to see it as a far-higher academic calling than it actually is, and perhaps indeed, an element of intellectual snobbery has enetered the field? Heaven forbid!!!! |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:06 am Post subject: Whence this juvenile, pettish hatred of archaeology? |
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I had been grossly unaware of the true capabilities, linguistic and otherwise, of certain avians, whatever the extent of humanisation or dehumanisation inherent in such abilities, and indeed, irrespective of the aesthetic merits thereof.
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It appears this fellow stands in need of a better dictionary. My spelling is perfectly acceptable to the highest authority, and contains an irony for those acute enough to detect it (and it demands little acuteness, at that!)
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| Henry Ford sold a far more popular and useful product than any archaeologist ever did. |
An indiscriminate application of his techniques has contributed massively to the imminent ecological disasters of the earth. Also, it is the philosophy where misapplied that brings the ill. Might I again refer anyone interested in this theme to Brave New World by Aldous Huxley.
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most learners of EFL want acquire a functional command of the language, without any inherent elements of historical, archaeological or literary appreciation.
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Actually, I advocated these things for teachers, not students. But since you wish to put words in my mouth as is your usual wont, I shall on this occasion accept them: in fact, I find that most students who are alert
are rather attracted to the cultural and historical aspects of the language when delivered at the right pitch and with sensitivity to the host culture. Such inflexions to one's teaching can but sustain interest and stimulation, and potentiate the efficient and lasting acquisition of functional language skills. But it is doubtful if a person who names himself with reference to a soft drink, spelt in a manner to mimic Asian pigeon English, and who constantly refers to his sexual proclivities, and habits of imbibition, stands in a condition to do any of these things. Before one goes about to underestimate the student, one should make an inner survey of oneself.
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To use an analogy, in reference to the point of my previos postings, I would prefer to get my car fixed by a mechanic than an archaeologist, historian or poet. Indeed, I would even give the mechanic preference over an engineer. Similarly, when getting my bathroom tiled, I strongly believe a builder will do a far better job than an architect.
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The point is, we do not primarily require cars to be fixed, or tiles to be laid in the classroom. We wish to grant an independent skill and internalised ownership of the language in the student. We are not programming machines. If I were studying Arabic, I would turn to someone who had a strong background in the appropriate art, as well as having adequate knowledge of teaching methods and ideologies. The former is more central to the teacher's ability to perform his task well.
By way of postscription, I notice with distaste your coupling of archaeology with degrees in "popular culture". The former is an academic discipline, the latter something one observes from the lofty heights of "intellectual snobbery" whilst reclining on one's divan. Still, I suppose Raiders of the Lost Ark and the significance of the canons of English literature are all one to Mr Bebsi.
Last edited by shadowfax on Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Quote: "...Asian pigeon English,"
Please consult your linguistics text or a dictionary. Pigeons do not speak English... even the ones living in the US or the UK... no less Asian pigeons...
It is "Pidgin" ... as Bebsi pointed out to you.
VS |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: pigeon English |
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| Thank you for your concern, but please consult a better dictionary, as I pointed out to Bebsi. Pidgins, or pigeons, are not always so black and white as some would have us believe. Or should I say mottled? |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:39 am Post subject: Learning to speak English....or to understand Shadowfax? |
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| Pidgins, or pigeons, are not always so black and white as some would have us believe. Or should I say mottled? |
Shadowfax, perhaps you should try to understand the significance of your own assertions, and realise that life, learning, students or indeed the universe are not always as black-and-white as you would try to have us believe.
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| Whence this juvenile, pettish hatred of archaeology? |
SF, where did you get the idea that I have a hatred of archaeology? Justy because I do not advocate the introduction of certain disciplines into the teaching of others, does not mean I have an abhorrence of them in any way. It just means they are not especially relevant. I actually enjoy archaeology...why, I even watched Raiders of the Lost Ark twice!!!!
Seriously, however, while I do indeed have an interest in archaeology (for instance, I am very interested in where Shadowfax learned to speak/write the way he does), I also do not find it or many other disciplines to be of particular in the EFL classroom, unless of course it is the subject of a lesson. Then again, while I have a great passion for cars, among other things, I would not see the need to centre an EFL lesson on automotive mechanics or, more pointedly, employ a motor-mechanic to teach English.
That being said, many mechanics I have met over the years, speak far more clearly and, dare I say, make themselves much more easily understood than many posters on this site. After all, simplicity is the key to effective communication, and being accesible to the audience. I would not dream, for example, of attempting to speak to anyone in an archaic, pretentious and pseudo-intellectual manner that would at worst alienate the audience completely and at best, simply have them falling about in fits of uncontrollable mirth. I am human: if people are going to laugh at me, I would prefer it to be intentional on my part.
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| But it is doubtful if a person who names himself with reference to a soft drink, spelt in a manner to mimic Asian pigeon English, and who constantly refers to his sexual proclivities, and habits of imbibition, stands in a condition to do any of these things. Before one goes about to underestimate the student, one should make an inner survey of oneself. |
Hmmmmm, I've noticed this before about you, SF. You tend to get personal when you are starting to run out of any plausible argument, or anything humourous to say. Well, at this point I'm not going to get into a dispute about my sexual proclivities or habits of imbibement, as I am far too hung-over and exhausted from a seriously long night of partying, boozing and s***ging.
Perhaps some people should start looking at developing proclivities along the lines that SF mentions. I suggest that it would be eminently more interesting to everyone, than a long-drawn-out exercise in pseudo-intellectual navel-gazing and archaic verbal mastication. [Another, similar-sounding word came to mind there but I will refrain from its employment!] 
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By way of postscription, I notice with distaste your coupling of archaeology with degrees in "popular culture". The former is an academic discipline, the latter something one observes from the lofty heights of "intellectual snobbery" whilst reclining on one's divan. Still, I suppose Raiders of the Lost Ark and the significance of the canons of English literature are all one to Mr Bebsi.
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Let me explain something that appears to have escaped you, SF. Popular Culture is essentially a reference to the way people live in the contemporary era, to include artistic, literary, social, recreational and indeed economic interests. In other words, those with an interest in popular culture are cocerned with how we live today. Archaeology is a study of the way peope lived yesterday. Other than the issue of time, where is the difference? SF appears very much to frown upon and indeed, to dismiss the present while glorifying the past. Sadly for him, for better or for worse, the present is where we now live.
And as it happens, I find Indiana Jones movies infinitely more interesting than many of the canons of English Literature.
Speaking of which, what did the clergyman's boy say when he heard his dad was to become a Canon?
- "Well, I'll be a son of a gun!" |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| I guess there is no accounting for taste. You became dull and repetitive a long time ago. All those sad metaphors about the work of car mechanics and tile-layers are seriously snoozeworthy. I hope the "audience" which you so richly imagine is able, unlike yourself, to distinguish between proof and metaphor; especially trite and dull metaphor. As for personalism, you have been far from averse to employ it yourself before now, as well as trite and puerile metaphors such as giant redwoods falling from the sky. I fear a forest of massy date palms would make little impression upon some people's insensible and insipid crania. |
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