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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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The subtleties of English floor Chinese [and Japanese] because their spoken languages are relatively simple.
Determiners [articles] and count/non-count nouns continue to confound my students from these two cultures, whereas the Middle Easterners and northern Europeans have few such problems.
Roger wrote
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| This is not a new topic, by the way, we had similar ones many times in the past |
That, old sport, is because the membership here [you aside] is constantly changing. But we'll try to avoid starting threads that have been done before. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Who really gives a monkeys . At the end of the day communication IS the key . |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Who really gives a monkeys |
People who want to acheive near-native proficiency do. Otherwise mime and interpretive dance would probably suffice. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| People who want to acheive near-native proficiency do |
Not one of the Chinese persons I have met will EVER reach this level UNLESS they go to an English speaking country.
Every English speaking Chinese person I have ever met is below intermediate level .
Therefore who really cares . Why even do this stupid job.
sorry to ruin the party.
that's just my feeling but guess what you don't agree? |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't know where you're teaching Sheeba, but you've really missed the boat on this one. Even in the Guangxi backblocks I had colleagues who fitted my description. In Shanghai you could have filled the local football stadium with them 5 times over.
And going to an English speaking country does not provide a solution either. My Singapore and Hong Kong colleagues here in Australia speak perfect English, but they didn't learn it here. The Shanghai university professors I worked with spoke perfect English as well, but didn't spend any time in English speaking countries until in their 30's. In contrast, my 18-20 year old Chinese students here in Oz make very slow progress and will never achieve "near native" status.
You sound bitter and disillusioned. Take a break back home. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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bitter yes . disillusion I think not .I know what I see and feel.
Mario mate I agree I need a break . I'm sure you'd make a good counselor .
I came to China because I wanted to teach . That was a big mistake but i've fallen in love with learning this challenging language .
I stand by what I said . I've never met an intermediate student here but perhaps it is the area.
You are a qualified teacher so I hold my hands up to you but this place adds nothing to 'professionalism ' in the field . I just want to improve myself in the class and become a better person for it . I think the PGCE in England will do wonders for me so yeah m8 I'm off soon .
I don't really know what i'm trying to say but YES I feel bitter right now regarding my teaching progress here . You don't want to know why 
duibuqi - I think I hijacked the thread somewhat. |
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erinyes
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 272
Location: GuangDong, GaoZhou
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| stil wrote: |
| vikdk wrote: |
| wouldn't a thread called common errors in the chinese education system be a more fitting subject for this forum? |
No because then you would have to talk about how the English department head got her job because she's the head master's mistress. |
In our little town the teachers ALL paid for their jobs at the school where I worked. First took an exam, and then paid the headmaster... so it'n not the best teacher but the most willing to give money that get the job. Nice huh?
The principal of the government school, who's official salary is 2500RMB per month has a Lexus.. That's a big problem in a school that hasn't fixed the computers or projectors in all of the classrooms yet. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:29 am Post subject: |
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sheeba - good on you mate - don't give up you're dead right -language is something that is to be understood as a communication not as an academic discipline - language illustrates culture and society.
now lets take some of marios proficient English speekers - lets show them a few episodes of the office or the league of gentelemen - not too many "bad" accents or nasty slang in these - I'm sure they'll understand the langauge - but will they understand what was communicated - no I think not - they need a few years in the UK the really fathom that out.
hey sheeba - you know those big pros like mario get worried when u rattle the little cage of lies called - you can learn perfect english in a langauge school - cause if folk don't beleive in this then he's out of a job. |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Sheeba, yes, China can make you feel you're wasting your time, and with some of the turkey classes we're given it's true. A PGC in TESOL is a good move. You've put in the hard work, so now make some money from it.
BTW, working in migrant education is by far the most satisfying ESL/EFL work I've done. I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities in that field in England.
And no, I don't work in a language school, I've paid my dues over several years in China and can find my own bum using a road map.
Last edited by Super Mario on Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| you can learn perfect english in a langauge school |
Aint gonna happen is it. Culture is the other key like you so rightly point out . Man I get a tingle thinking about David Brent . How funny can one individual be ?
I'm not cussing Mario . I respect qualifications . If we can't educate ourselves then who are we to teach. |
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klaus
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Quite a few gems in amongst this lot. Here's just a few.
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2. improper use of the articles, in particular "the"
Determiners [articles] and count/non-count nouns continue to confound my students from these two cultures
insufficient grasp of the articles' function;
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Pretty tough for the students when their "teachers" don't themselves understand the difference between Identification and Attribution.
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| language is something that is to be understood as a communication not as an academic discipline |
what does this mean? there is no doubt that to achieve any degree of success in second language learning - ie to achieve a proficiency higher than a pidgin - academic discipline (and a knowledgeable instructor) is required.
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| The subtleties of English floor Chinese [and Japanese] because their spoken languages are relatively simple |
Not sure what most of this means, but I would be interested to know why you claim Chinese and Japanese to be any simpler than English or any other language for that matter.
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3. Syntax:
Inversion of sentences that are transformed into negative statements or questions:
I no have money/Why the man pay for me? Etc. |
This is nothing to do with "inversion"whatever that might be. It's simply that learners who produce such statements have never had anyone explain to them the role of The Finite in English, mainly, I expect, because they have never had a teacher who understands it themselves.
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Grammar:
- (already pointed out: no SVA,
Many do not follow the subject/verb rule for sentences. Of course, they also add phrases based on Chinese rather than English grammar: |
You might consider Mood and Nonfinite Clauses before making rash statements about supposed subject/verb "rules". |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| so just take mario as a tingle as well - his pompous comments are almost as funny |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| now lets take some of marios proficient English speekers - lets show them a few episodes of the office or the league of gentelemen - not too many "bad" accents or nasty slang in these - I'm sure they'll understand the langauge - but will they understand what was communicated - no I think not - they need a few years in the UK the really fathom that out. |
wrote vikdv.
I'm sure Trobriand Islanders or Kentucky back woodsmen would find themselves in the same position, vikdk. What is your point exactly? Is it that unless one is immersed in a specific cultural environment one's English is worthless? I don't think international business is conducted on that erroneous premise, or diplomacy. If it was, Dubya would have stayed in his own back yard. |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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damn board
Last edited by Super Mario on Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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im not commenting on folk from kentucky or the West Indies - I'm sure your right about them - I'm commenting on the perfect speeking folk who you held up so high in your earlier argument.
As far a diplomacy is concerned - I worked for the International Red Cross for many years and soon came to realise that 2 people from 2 different langauge backgrounds can still have great difficulty understanding each other when one or both of them is communicating in a second language - that is why all international diplomatic communication is nearly always carried out through translators if more than one language is involved - regardless of how proficient the chief negotiators are in the second language! These translators are of course highly academically qualified - but more importantly they should have a strong understanding of the social culture that the language used reflects. Only by living in a country can you learn its language to that level of understanding.
as for klaus - anything constructive to add to this argumate mate - or is it too far bellow you? |
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