Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

[Henry_Cowell]

[friedrich nietzsche]

It is always fun to watch a little bit of sparing between two people of learning and experience, but I would point out that both parties have the capacity to contribute in more positive ways. Any chance of a ceasefire, lads?
Roger's points raise some interesting questions about the nature of language learning. These folks seem to have mastered language without the help of native speakers. What is it about the current crop of students that holds them back? Could it be a question of motivation?
I would have paid a lot of money to have seen the looks on those kids' faces when the bearded vikdk and his shaggy entourage greeted them that morning. The only way that this scence could have been anymore amusing is if you had been sitting in a circle passing joints around.
Henry, would you care to share some experiences?

[vikdk]

we came to china through Pakistan - in remote northern pakistan my then girlfriend made joints for a group of locals in a village tea house - and then out smoked them - should have seen their faces

[Henry_Cowell]

One critical difference in China between English-language learning today and English-language learning thirty years ago is that students in the late 1960s and early 1970s had already read huge amounts of authentic English-language materials. Their knowledge was astounding. Their conversational skills were also more authentic because they had had the benefit of Chinese teachers of English who had real English skills (those teachers had studied English in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s and were amazingly fluent).

There were in fact ups and downs in English teaching throughout the first half of the 20th century. Yes, there was a huge general decline in English teaching during the height of the Cultural Revolution, but people were still teaching and studying English. Not all materials were banned or destroyed. By 1978, there were still plenty of highly skilled English teachers who hadn't been eliminated in the Cultural Revolution. But the levels of teaching and learning have never returned to those of pre-Cultural Revolution days.

One key difference is in the quality of the native speakers who teach English in China. The low qualifications and immaturity of today's foreign "experts" is quite poor when compared to the level of teachers who taught in China prior to 1985. Blaming the Chinese educational system is only a small part of the problem. It's a very complex issue.

[Roger]

Henry's assessment is curiously similar to mine. May I add and expand on what I am adding?

Those who studied English in the past chose this subject; those who study it today are given no such choice: it is compulsory rather than an elective.
How many of us were excellent at maths or sciences? I guess, not too many - for the same reason: it is not an elective.
Compulsion acts as a disincentive, and this the teaching profession tries to mitigate by lowering standards. They have to find a common denominator in large classes with vastly different learning abilities.


I have some suspicion as to why the English proficiency of our students is so low these days.
English has become a mere academic subject. Chinese English teachers never speak English during their lessons except to model pronunciation. They seldom speak entire sentences, and those few they do utter are followede by a translation.
The goals are purely quantitative: so and so many vocabs for Band I, Band II or Band III. Grammar is dispensed with summarily and superficially.
Yes, the old guard taught differently; they had taken their cues from the many foreigners living in China - missionaries, educationists, businesspeople.
And they probably taught them to study literature and immerse themselves in the English language through reading. You hardly see reading students these days; what little reading takes place is almost entirely devoted to mimicking English sounds through reading aloud.

I am not quite convinced that the admittedly variable quality of FTs has much to do with the poor performance of Chinese English learners; no matter what professional background you have your job almost always is to coach Chinese students in oral English. Even the most highly educated teacher cannot deliver if his students won't cooperate; how can they cooperate since speaking English has never been on their menu for up to ten years?

[Henry_Cowell]

[towyen]

Henry old boy, when was the last time you taught English in China? Tell us what it was like? Did you go to class in a Rickshaw?

[Henry_Cowell]

Actually, "towyen," I took a taxi to the office when I was most recently in Shanghai (Aug-Sept 2005).

[Roger]

When I say "speak English" I mean someone is using their own brains and delivers a speech in Engllish, which for them is a foreign tongue.

Of course, I can easily lead my charges into speaking from memory or repeating after someone else (the tape, for instance).

I don't subscribe to the idea that special conversation classes are an absolute necessity, and from the opinions gathered among literally hundreds of people, FTs, foreign visitors and Chinese English professionals, it is evident that Chinese students require special attention and special efforts, and one might occasionally wonder whether it's all worth that.

It's worth the effort if the effort is reciprocated, of course.

It isn't when students fail to do their part - reading up and being prepared for the lesson ahead.

Then again, some FTs are not teachers, as Henry said himself; they are emcees primarily. Yes, you can tickle some noisy reactions out even of comatose Chinese classroom phantoms.
IF that's your job, go for it!