Job Discussion Forums

[shenyanggerry]

vikdk, we have two principles here. First, when you give your sworn word - signed a contract - you should honour it. Second, Russel is doing his best to see that the kids have a good time in his class and enjoy learning. Do you really believe that the children would be better off if he left?

The parents are only too aware that the marks determine the school. If you don't get into a good middle school, you won't get in a good or any university. This affects your employment for the rest of your life!

I had a couple of friends in Canada whose children were competitive swimmers. They were up at 3:30 or 4:00 AM for an hour and a half swim, back home to bed. Up again for breakfast and school. After school, they swam for another two hours. Weekends were for competitions. When I asked if they weren't taking away their childhoods, I was told that both parents had followed the same regimen when young and wanted to give their children the same opportunities. They believed, based on experience, that this was best for their children! What the Chinese do is much the same. I don't agree with it but they're trying to do the best for their children.

[vikdk]

when reading this post remember that it hinges on the treatment of Children under 10 years of age - with this in mind please read again the shenganggerry post which uses a concept of "bad" to support the concept "good and what is right" - very strange!

Shenganggerry your argument can only lead us to one conclusion � what China needs are professional teachers who really can advise on the difference between what is ethically right and wrong in the field of education � and how the �wrong� can lead to long term personality/social problems. Poorly trained FT's seem to have the role of propping a bad system up rather than having any influence in changing it.

As for changing things that�s another matter, but I know for a fact, in northern Europe, that children treated in the same way as �the swimming kids� would certainly be under the close eye of the local authorities with a view to their long term welfare. That�s how things are changed back home - good rules that support the victim instead of the oppressor. I know I'm not back home but by constantly supporting what i see as the good rule maybe will be a small push towards promoting children's rights here.

Russel - sorry mate - nothing personal you just hit on a major bugbear of mine - you seem to be reflecting in a caring way on the general situation here in China - and if the truth be known I also started in a similar kind of company, but refussed to do any weekend or evening classes point black without discusion - good luck I do hope you can improve the situation of your kids.

[vikdk]

By way of appendix to my last posts � please read them with the following in mind � I have suggested nothing illegal � we are not slaves to the workplace even if we sign a contract (is that an oath???) � maybe we must pay a penalty, but breaking contract is quite legal � as for going to HK buying openly and legally a visa, nothing wrong there � legally looking for work in China � a lot easier and effective than doing it online � maybe if Russel had done it that way he would have chosen a different employer.

[Russell123]

I understand where you're coming from vikdk, but from what I've seen so far the chinese kindergarten system needs a lot more reform than the after-hours language schools. Having a four year old sit at a desk all day and drill seems pretty unhealthy. What we do with our kindergarteners is more like "playtime in English" rather than language classes. The emphasis is supposed to be on building confidence and having fun.

Why not boycott teaching in Chinese schools altogether? From kindergarten to university, I think they do much more damage to a child's imagination than the language schools. I agree, it's too much for the kids, but the entire system is to blame, not just the greedy language schools.

Shenyang Gerry - I think you make a good point - from the parent's perspective, they are trying to do what is right for their kids. It's easy for those of us from wealthy countries to pass judgements on them, but when you consider that most of these families are struggling to lift themselves out of poverty, or have only recently done so, perhaps getting their kids to attend English class on the weekend doesn't seem so cruel after all. The alternative to education in this country is pretty dismal, after all.

[vikdk]

Russel there is a huge differnce between institutions such as legitimate schools and kindergartens that by the habits of society are essential and unneeded ones such as training schools for the under 10's whose sole purpose seems to be developing income rather than happy students. As for boycotting legit kindies and schools - well their is case for that - and sometimes I really have to examine my own conscious on that subject. just look at some of the things I've been writing in other threads about jumping into bed with the devil - they can sound pretty hypocritical in the light of other stuff I've been writing! But I suppose that the best thing about writing in these forums - it's a chance for self-reflection and really homing in on what we are actualy doing here. At the moment I think I can make a positive difference so I stay - I think you also feel that way and will do the same - at least were not going into our work blindly.

as far as shegaggerry's argument is concerned read their post again carefully - they were giving (I must admit a mute) defence to parents from one of the world's richest nations, for an act that most well thinking people would label as child torture - leaving out the subject of drugs try reading up the history of the East German child sports prodigies of the 70's and 80's to see why such a dim view is held on this kind of subject. Defending Chinese parents from the standpoint of they think they are doing the best for their kids isn't really a veiw that holds much water in a considered discussion that focuses on child rights.

As far as poverty in China is concerned - don't worry your boss isn't interested in the poor - I have done some volunteer classes in a very poor rural village, I know what poor is - but you know something two times I have lived at that school which is partly supported by foreign charity - those kids in many ways are so much freer than their city counterparts they can play they can enjoy a cleaner environment - I always come back wonfdering who are the richer!

[Roger]

Now we are pretty defensive, aren't we, "vikdk"? I would join that voice of reason who suggested that if your conscience - and not "conscious", as you continue to mistype it - suffers at what your mind registers in Chinese kindergartens then you really should shut the whole of China out of your mind - by absconding.
Instead, you have chosen to profit from a bad situation by selling your services to those who are willing to pay you for "teaching" their kid while a multitude of others cannot afford to pay, and maybe they would deserve a compassionate, sympathetic coach for their child far more than those rotten rich bourgeois parents that are your customers!

You know our quarrel started when you derogated those who work here legally; you derided them for accepting standard salaries and you flattered those guys up that boasted how much more they were making than the regularones among us.

In other words: you are here for the dough, not for teaching. You have shown contempt for anyone who was abiding laws and obeying orders from their employers.
You have an anti-authoritarian trait, nothing untoward per se but a little immature in your position as an alien on Chinese soil, in my opinion! It's good sometimes to be rebellious, but it's not so good if you cannot lead your personal rebellion by yourself and need everyone else to follow you like lemmings.

I sincerely doubt your professed concern for those poor Chinese kids! Ask me why, but it's a waste of time explaining to you why I don't have much trust in a braggards like you, but I guess you won't want to hear that.

Has it never occurred to you that the Chinese have the education they deserve? They have the country they want, no less and no more; they have been asking westerners to make contributions to it, and I for one am interested in adding what little I could to make it better; but I have to caution against bigoted zealousness and overreaction. You clearly take the haughty stance that since you know what's wrong here you don't need to work for one of those local slave-drivers; you are therefore adding your own wrong to the wrong of sending young kids to Chinese kindergartens. That makes it two wrongs then.

Rogue "teachers' like you are not going to change the overall situation; they are only benefiting themselves for the limited period of time they are tolerated here. With your eventual discovery by the cops your antics will stop and the kids you so unselfishly served before will have to go back to a regular kindergarten again.

If you really had guts you would invest in a privately-owned kindergarten of your own and try to influence the silly thinking of the Chinese average parents that have had no exposure to enlightened western pedagogical thinking yet.
But my guess is you are shying away from accepting your responsibility!
Teaching in China is so much easier than actually managing and funding a school! You no doubt feel much better knowing that you can call your Chinese boss "leech" while practising much the same as he does.

[vikdk]

a Roger quote

[vikdk]

As an appendix to my last post �
In 1994 I visited South Africa and spent some time in Soweto in those days the sight of the shanty-town and work barracks for the native population was totally terrible � living conditions were worse. When asking the whites in Jo�burg about the plight of these poor blacks, so many times I got the same answer � lazy bas**** they�ve got what they deserve, it�s what they�re used to � they like it.
So reminiscent of Roger�s viewpoint regarding the Chinese

[Roger]

I am sure, VikingDane, I have been resident in China for the last few years, and I probably speak the local lingo far better than you do.
Do I watch local TV? No! Do I need a mobile phone? No! Do I have to do the same things that you do in order to "know" what the Chinese "think"? Definitely NOT, my little friend!

Look, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, and so am I to mine; why can't you accept this? I still say the Chinese have the government/education whatever they deserve: they don't change it from within and won't allow outsiders to change it either. They have been brainwashed into submission, and only the elite few realise this. Those who realise it are seldom rich enough to pay your extraordinarily high fees. You have said it time and again you want the money, there is gold on China's city streets and you only need to pick it up - and that's what you are doing, but you can only do it where the rich live, and the rich are not the people described above. They are those who benefit the most from China's current economic boom, so they won't rock the boat.

Now to your totally gratuitous remark about Soweto: boy, I also have been to, what is it called? Kristianstad, in Copenhagen!
Since I have been there, do I automatically assume you must be a drug pusher??? (Yes, I have heard they cleared that slum but I was there long, long before!).

I will give you the benefit of some credit for having been to South Africa; so what? I doubt, I simply cannot believe you have spoken to Jo'burg's whites.
The majority were never really supporters of apartheid! Not in JO'burg, maybe elsewhere, Pretoria for example, or Rustenburg.

But even so, what's that got to do with this thread? Or even with me? Strictly nothing.
You are just producing a tonne of humbug!

[Russell123]

Interesting..vikdk, on your opinion then, what is the best thing I can do for the children in China? Quit my job and go somewhere else, or sign on for a more enlightened school in China? I don't think any of us are here for altruistic reasons. We lead a good lifestyle, enjoy a relatively high status, and have fairly rewarding jobs...but there are many countries which 'need' us more than China does. On the other hand, Roger, there are many countries where we could be making a lot more money, so I think accusing vikdk for being here for the dough might be a little presumptious.

I don't know if China has the education system it deserves, but it certainly seems to have the one it wants. I teach kindergarten at a relatively poor part of town, and also at the local 'officials' compound, and aside from one having slightly better equipment, there is little discernable difference between the two. And so far, no one I've asked (and I've asked quite a few people) have any desire to see the system change.

So what keeps both of you here? You could both have good careers elsewhere, either making more money, or making 'more of a difference'. I do think vikdk could be justifiably accused of hypocrisy. Why are you not still with those 'lucky' poor kids in South Africa? And Roger, if you believe you are participating in a system of brainwashing that is beyond your ability to change, why do you continue? Where are your ethical boundaries?

I know it's straying far from the original topic of this thread but I am very interested in hearing both of your responses...

[vikdk]

why do I stay - I'm here because of something that is hard to find back home - the adventure - never know what's going to be around the next corner - I kinda like that

[Roger]

[vikdk]

Russell you mentioned change � just remember this word could be considered among the most dangerous in China � openly discussing change in the educational system would have been impossible a relatively short time ago � and for many change is still a taboo subject, one that calls for whispers and one that is certainly not discussed with strangers � no matter where they come from. Maybe with time and closer personal connection your opinion on this matter will change.

Another aspect of change is that things are often so different here � where we the FT�s often view difference in a negative light. But things are changing in every single way � almost at eye blink speed � and cultural globalisation is also taking affect in mainstream China. However as outsiders our negativity often causes us to view this as a stagnant non-changing society � because the new doesn�t entirely suite our habits and manners. In my mind the major paradox here is that the closer things get to a western norm � the more frustrated we get � we can see so many familiar things � day by day there are more and more � but the often alien nature of the culture is getting in the way.

In this post I�m not trying to come over as the wise ol� sage � and neither is it one that intends to promote or defend any changes that are taking place � it�s more a piece about recognizing something that I believe is so difficult for us comprehend � a process that leaves some of us very frustrated because of the immense difficulties experienced in trying to influence the course of things to come � even when we are involved in that very process at the micro-local level.

[Russell123]

Thanks to both of you for your thoughtful answers to my questions. China is certainly a country full of paradoxes...what first struck me (and I am still so new that all my impressions are first impressions) was the sense of possibility and freedom from security and regulation. Of course, my sense of those freedoms are probably exaggerated by being a foreigner, not knowing the language, not having been subjected to 'politics' classes, not threatening the existing power-structure, and so on...but there is 'something about China' which is strangely attractive. I don't think I'm suffering from the newbie sinophilia that I;ve heard about on this forum - I haven't been able to block out the wretchedness and callousness that I so often encounter here - but I have been lucky enough to meet with some relatively independant-minded Chinese, and this fuels my optimism.

Yes, Vikdk, the obvious changes that China is going through are accompanied by seeming stagnation...but I agree with Roger, we do make a difference, albiet a mostly imperceptible one. But is it patronsing and hypocritical for us to talk about changing China, when we've rejected those 'enlightened' socities from whence we came and use as standards for educational reform?

What, then, are your hopes for this new China? What kind of society are we helping to create? I personally don't buy into the 'China is special' arguement, or that the people are so hopelessly crippled by the confucian or maoist traditions not to wake up to their own individuality...eventually. we may be impatient and frustrated, and may not be alive to see the fruits of China's hoped-for prosperity, but in your opinion, what sort of culture will 'follow the money' to China?

[Roger]

Change by and in itself is neither bad nor good - it sometimes is necessary, sometimes it is desirableand sometimes it is useless; it always isresisted bysome, and it never occurs the way it is originallyintended.

I have in my time here seen a lot of changes,and as an outsider I have been watching and observingthem more consciously than Chinese have. I am often struck by perplexitiy when I notice how little Chinese are aware of the ongoing transformations. They take too much for granted, and they do not realise which direction the changes have taken. Only a minority is proactively trying to steer those changes. The vast majority simply follow.

In education, English has become a compulsory subject only within the last decade, and this has happened in a creeping fashion. There wasno - as far as I know - public announcement to the effect of elevating English to the same rank of maths, history, geography; thus a lot of bumbling and experimentation has accompanied the introdcution to China's classrooms of English. And we are nowhere near the middle down the road
of trying and adjusting.
I said there is no definite and authoritative answer to the question: is "change" good or bad?
Judging the side-effects of this new subject you inevitably have to quantify some negativity. First: the quality of English teaching here is substandard, and part of the reason might be that China, introducing English late (after a hiatus of using Russian as an elective during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s) is starting from ground zero and thus has fewer trained and suitable teaching staff. The consequence is an uninspired, unenthusiastic "let's do this job because we get paid for it!" attitude! Some FTs clearly are also of this mindset!
But people's mentality has undergone big changes too! Nowadays parents force their kids to take English, and those with money force their kids to take extra-curricular English - good for you if you are interested in making money but not so good for the poor learners! I pity themajority of China's youths and children!
There also is a growing dichotomy between the haves and have-nots - the former who can afford to pay for special classes or tuition, the latter who scrape by and attend school in rural destitution.
How badly the latter are off few FTs realise! Some Chineseteachers make do on salaries below 500 a month! (I read on Saturday that some local authorities default on teacher wages even though those teachers were promised one-hundred-and-fifty-three kuai a whole month!).
So, we as Westerners, hailing from affluent, stable societies are in fact assisting a system in its efforts at modernising and developing so that it can compete against us for economic gainsthat for us have been a given for decades if not centuries, though the Chinese have now to pay a cruel price: social dislocations, economic differentiation and a general dissolution of the fabrics that formerly tied each individual to a community.
That thereare very negative consequences coming from the current metamorphosis of CHina's body social is plainlyviewable: look at the rowdiness of city people (compared to the relative peacefulness of members of tightly-knit communities such as danweis, villages, and indeed entire towns that haven't undergone those changes yet). Look at the increase in crimes and antisocial behaviours and in the number of Chinese moving abroad while the vast rest of their compatriotsare condemned to living lives of poor, disenfranchised indentured labourers.

If you want me to add a positive brush stroke, so let me add that I sometimes enjoy coaching a wealthy individual because even among the stinkingrich you find sympathetic, feeling, intelligent and honest folks.
BUt not everyone of the rich is.