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jeffinflorida
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 2024
Location: "I'm too proud to beg and too lazy to work" Uncle Fester, The Addams Family season two
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have left my job in the middle of a contract and have never had a reprecussion from my former employer or the Chinese Government.
I stated my reasons in previous posts but I will tell you if you can not work it out and you are not happy then find another gig and go somewhere that has better terms. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Quitting my esl job |
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| tw wrote: |
| I worked 7 days a week in Qingdao two years ago for about 4 months, and 6 days a week for a full term in Dalian. Is there a web site you can give us regarding this part of the Chinese labour law? |
You can view some of the relevant legislation in English here.
You will find a reference to the requirement of all workers to be given at least one day a week off. I cannot however find any reference to the fact that foreigners are required by law to be given two days a week off, and this may be the legislation that you were asking for.
Can the person who made reference to this regulation post it here?
| jeffinflorida wrote: |
| I have left my job in the middle of a contract and have never had a reprecussion from my former employer or the Chinese Government. |
Maybe you were just lucky. Maybe those repercussions are yet to be felt by you. Or maybe there are no set repercussions against foreign teachers who break their contracts.
But is the argument really 'Can you get away with it?' or 'Should you really do it in the first place?' In Jeff's case and from his own admission he broke his contract and chose to keep money that he wasn't entitled to. In his case it is likely that there were repercussions on future foreign teachers at that school so as people like Jeff travel around China and soil the relationship between schools and teachers even worse than it already is they are being rather selfish as they are not considering what happens after they leave.
I would be interested in hearing clarification on one point from the OP as these discussion has gone in two seperate directions.
1. Did you sign up for the number of hours and the pay rate that you are currently complaining about?
2. Has your employer given you those hours and the relevant salary during your time there?
3. Assuming that the employer is acting inline with your agreement in the above two areas, then are there other serious breaches that you feel may enable you to break the contract with that school? |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: Re: Quitting my esl job |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| You will find a reference to the requirement of all workers to be given at least one day a week off. |
Well I can honestly say that I have yet to know of ANY Chinese workers lucky enough to have a FULL day off. At best they were the waitresses working in the restaurant of the university I taught in last year and each had half a day off once a week (until 4pm). Chinese laws, as we all know are hardly ever followed or for that matter, enforced.
| jeffinflorida wrote: |
| I have left my job in the middle of a contract and have never had a reprecussion from my former employer or the Chinese Government. |
Is that so? Then why don't you tell us where in China you are (if you are STILL in China) and if you are in China, the name of your employer or are you scared that the PSB will come knocking on your door at 2am? |
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nappyni
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for your replies again. Yes, I signed up for the hours and I signed up indirectly for one day a week. My recruiter said I would get two days off a week, my boss said so, but my contract just states the numbers of hours I will work, not how many days off a week. So, yes, it's my fault, I came in on blind faith.But, I'm not taking it anymore. If things don't change by the time I get my paycheck, I'm out of here. And yes, i'm a bit paranoid about saying the name of my school. Things are so corrupt here. But, if things don't work out you will know. I'll blast them and the recruiting company on the internet, after I'm gone. And I'll make a post of the lessons I learned, so if anyone does there research before they decide to take this adventure, they'll know what to do. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Quitting my esl job |
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| tw wrote: |
| Well I can honestly say that I have yet to know of ANY Chinese workers lucky enough to have a FULL day off. At best they were the waitresses working in the restaurant of the university I taught in last year and each had half a day off once a week (until 4pm). Chinese laws, as we all know are hardly ever followed or for that matter, enforced. |
I certainly agree that just because it is in the legislation does not mean that in reality this is what occurs. Having said that, most if not all of the Chinese people I know only work five or six days a week. I don't know anyone who works seven days a week, but then I am referring to office staff and above. I am sure that some restaurant employees and other workers in the service sector could face different circumstances.
| tw wrote: |
| Is that so? Then why don't you tell us where in China you are (if you are STILL in China) and if you are in China, the name of your employer or are you scared that the PSB will come knocking on your door at 2am? |
Good point. Just because Jeff has not faced any repercussions as yet does not mean that he won't in the future. Problems could be waiting for him around any corner and I guess that this is the problem with doing a runner. You just never know when it may catch up with you!
| nappyni wrote: |
| Yes, I signed up for the hours and I signed up indirectly for one day a week. My recruiter said I would get two days off a week, my boss said so, but my contract just states the numbers of hours I will work, not how many days off a week. So, yes, it's my fault, I came in on blind faith. |
Your honesty is appreciated. Trust me when I say that no one likely considers this to be your fault, but nor is it likely the schools fault. It seems that the contract was ambiguous and that each party had differing opinions about what exactly was required under the contract, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this was deliberate on behalf of the school.
| nappyni wrote: |
| If things don't change by the time I get my paycheck, I'm out of here. |
For everyone's sake I hope that you leave appropriately by giving a reasonable amount of notice.
| nappyni wrote: |
| And yes, i'm a bit paranoid about saying the name of my school. |
That is not paranoid - it is a wise move at this stage.
Please remember to post about your experiences with the school and the recruiter once you are clear of them as I agree that naming them and laying out your honest experience with them will be valuable for teachers considering positions with them in the future. |
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pc-pocket
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 218
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pc-pocket
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Laws and Regulations Posted: 2003-07-16 16:45:18
Customs Notice to Foreign Students Studying in China
(Effective Date:1984.08.01--Ineffective Date:)
Article 1. Entry
Upon entry into China, a foreign student studying in China (hereinafter referred to as a "foreign student") shall fill out a Declaration Form for Passengers' Baggage in duplicate, one copy of which shall be returned to the foreign student for keeping after endorsement by the Customs. The articles marked with " * " on the Declaration Form shall be re-taken out upon departure from China.
Article 2. Duty-free Admission
(1) Articles for study and daily use brought in by the foreign students shall be admitted duty free by the Customs if in reasonable quantities for personal use.
(2) A foreign student who is admitted to study in China for one year or more can bring in one each of the following categories of durable duty free for their personal use during their study in China:
Wrists watches, cameras, 8mm cinecameras, refrigerators, washing machines, electrical fans, tape recorders, portable radio-cassette recorders, cassette players, typewriters, calculators, TV sets and bicycles.
(3) For inward personal articles sent to a foreign student by post or through consignment shipping during his or her stay in China, they shall be admitted duty free if the duty amount does not exceed RMB Y30 ; only the excess amount will be levied if the duty amount exceeds RMB Y30.
Article 3. Restrictions on Inward Articles
(1) Cars, motor-cycles, video recorders, video cameras and hi-fis are not allowed in without Customs permission.
(2) Unenumerated consumer durables shall be admitted on payment of duties if the Customs determines they are in reasonable quantities for personal use after verification.
Article 4. Application for "Registration Card for Inward Articles"
A foreign student studying in China for one year or more can, after registering in school, apply to the designated Customs office for a "Registration Card for Inward Articles" (hereinafter referred to as "Registration Card"), producing for the Customs office his or her passport, resident card, student identity card (or certificate issued by the school) and the Declaration Form for passengers' Baggage endorsed by the Customs office at the port of entry. The articles listed in Paragraph 2 of Article 2 of the present Notice shall be admitted duty free by the Customs against the "Registration Card". The "Registration Card" shall be kept carefully.
A foreign student who has changed school shall give a notification to the Customs office issuing the "Registration Card".
Article 5. Control over Foreign Currencies, Gold and Silver, Jewellery and Cultural Relics
Foreign currencies, gold and silver, jewellery and cultural relics which foreign students bring in shall not be subject to any quantity limitations, but shall be bona fide declared to the Customs. However, they shall be limited to the quantity registered on the Declaration Form at the time of exit. A foreign student who brings out gold and silver ornaments bought in China's territory shall produce to the Customs for verification the "Special Invoices" designed and printed by the People's Bank of China. A foreign student who brings out cultural relics bought in China's territory shall declare them to the Customs, and the Customs will examine and release them against the red wax seals affixed to them (or Export Certificates for Cultural Relics) and invoices stamped with "Purchased with Foreign Exchange" for cultural relics.
Article 6. Exit and Re-entry for a Short Sojourn
If a foreign student leaves for Hong Kong, Macao or a foreign country for a vacation during his or her study in China, the articles for daily use needed on the journey shall be released free of duty by the Customs. If the student brings out the articles listed in paragraph 2 of Article 2 of the present Notice, they shall be declared to the Customs at the time of exit so that the Customs can release them free of duty upon his or her re-entry. The articles purchased in the said places shall be declared to the Customs if the student brings them in. Of them, those which fall in the duty-free allowances shall be admitted duty free and registered on the "Registration Card"; any excess over the duty-free allowances shall be released on payment of duties after verification and approval by the Customs.
Article 7. Control over Transit Articles
If a foreign student ships in consumer durables from Hong Kong or other places before leaving China and intends to bring them out when returning to his or her country, the Customs procedures for transit articles shall apply to them. The durables shipped in shall not be delivered but re-shipped out under Customs control and supervision. The foreign student shall be charged fees for warehousing the durables.
Article 8. Sale of Inward Articles
The articles which have been admitted by the Customs shall not be sold to any units or other individuals in China's territory without permission but to the departments purchasing foreign articles designated by the local people's governments. The duties and taxes on the articles admitted duty free shall be made good by the purchasing departments in accordance with the relevant regulations. If any violations of this provision occur, penalties shall be given by the Customs in accordance with the relevant regulation.
Article 9. Exit
When a foreign student leaves China after finishing school, the articles to be brought out shall be released duty free by the Customs if in reasonable quantities for personal use.
http://en.chinacourt.org/public/detail.php?id=2959 |
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shenyanggerry
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 619
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Customs Notice to Foreign Students Studying in China |
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What about foreign teachers? |
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nappyni
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| believe me, i don't want to leave them stranded. But, I don't trust that they'll pay me if i give them notice. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nappyni wrote: |
| believe me, i don't want to leave them stranded. But, I don't trust that they'll pay me if i give them notice. |
Pay you your wage? Or do you mean that you are worried about them deducting the breach penalty? If it is the latter, and assuming that this is stated in the contract, then why do you feel that you should be able to avoid paying it? |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:35 am Post subject: |
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nappyni,
So is your plan then to do a runner? |
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thepreferrednomenclature
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Beijing, Chaoyang
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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nappyni,
If you tell them in advance you are leaving, then your insticts are right, they will take your last month's salary as the breach penalty. Wait until the money to services rendered ratio feels right, the cash is in your pocket, your other resources are all safely secured, then call me in Beijing and I'll pick you up at the train station and buy you a beer when you get here.
The lecture on "Morality of Contracts in China" by Griswold is meant to shame you into staying. The only reprecussions on future foreign teachers if you stay is that nothing will change. If you go, they'll just find someone else to replace you, if the contract is the same, feel sorry for that guy, if it's worse, the chances diminish that anyone else will sign it.
The Chinese have joined the WTO and claim to have a free market system, teach them some basics of employee retention strategies.
Pointing at a contract and growling usually doesn't work. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| Wait until the money to services rendered ratio feels right, the cash is in your pocket, your other resources are all safely secured, then call me in Beijing and I'll pick you up at the train station and buy you a beer when you get here. |
I have a feeling that this is pretty much what the OP will end up doing and I think it a shame. While there are foreign teachers here who are willing to disregard contracts for their own convenience then schools will also continue to do so. I know that it is a bit of the 'which came first - the chicken or the egg', but I honestly believe that if we foreigners just do whatever the hell we like here then we can't demand anymore from the schools that employ us. To do so is just being hypocritical.
I am not talking about laying down and just accepting it. I am talking about drawing a line in the sand and saying this is wrong and that is right. Whoever is in the right should receive support from all us - be it the school or the teacher.
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| The only reprecussions on future foreign teachers if you stay is that nothing will change. |
Maybe nothing will change, maybe things will improve, but most likely the next teacher will be met with suspicion. It may be automatically assumed that the new teacher will also leave pre-contract end, and it is never nice to be viewed as a contract breaker when you are just starting out at a school, but who can blame the school.
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| If you go, they'll just find someone else to replace you, if the contract is the same, feel sorry for that guy, if it's worse, the chances diminish that anyone else will sign it. |
Please explain what is wrong with the contract at that school?
You or I may not want the hours or the pay rate offered but that doesn't make it a bad contract. The OP agreed to the contract in the first place which means that he either agreed that it was a good enough deal to take, or is evidence that he failed to adequately research what was on offer at other schools.
Either way I can't see that the school did anything wrong, and I stand by earlier suggestion that if the teacher breaks the contract and does a runner in this case then he is clearly in the wrong. He seems like a pretty nice guy actually and I mean him no goodwill, but there is no justification for him doing a runner in this case. If he wants to resign then fine resign and pay the penalty for breach agreed to. Anything less than this is dishonest and it doesn't reflect well upon people who support this sort of behavior in my opinion. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| hey nappyni dont take too much notice of clarks ethics - when it suites him he can advise people to break the law and work on F visas as in the EF saga - something to do with don't rock the boat - he seems always to take the employers side - but then he is a de facto recruiter |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| hey nappyni dont take too much notice of clarks ethics - when it suites him he can advise people to break the law and work on F visas as in the EF saga - something to do with don't rock the boat - he seems always to take the employers side - but then he is a de facto recruiter |
You seem a little upset vikdk. I suggest that you don't take things so personally.
For anyone who is unsure what vikdk is talking about, he is making reference to recent posts on the EF Ningbo thread where he has found himself a minority of one.
First off, I have never advised people to break the law by working on an F visa. In fact I have done quite the opposite and this is evidenced by my posts in that thread. Please don't deliberately misquote myself or other users of this forum!
I do not always take the employers side and I think that the reams of information that I have written about teachers rights attest to this. Having said that I will not automatically take the side of a foreign teacher just because that person happens to be a foreigner and so am I. I don't subscribe to the 'us and them' mentality that some develop as I don't see that it helps anyone. I believe in standing up and supporting the people who have been wronged and exposing the people who do the wrong thing.
In this case I believe that the teacher would be in the wrong if he did a runner from this school. Please state why you think that in this case we should support this teacher against the school? Or is it just a case of sticking together - the old us and them mentality rears its ugly head again!
Finally we have had this recruiter debate before and it is old news. I am not a recruiter nor do I get any money from recruiting teachers - full stop. I have proved you wrong in all of your assumptions about me so I suggest that you put that whole argument to rest and concentrate on arguing my posts if you must, but don't bother trying to argue about me! |
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