Job Discussion Forums

[Sherri]

Roger
I teach at a private language school in Tokyo. The students are intermediate and advanced level adults. Ability-wise they could probably handle literature but we do not include it on the syllabus. Why? Because they don't like it. It reminds them of their university classes. It is also not the focus of our programme--we are oriented more towards current news events as topics--and this is what attracts our students.

You assume that:
1. everyone is teaching "oral English" and that all we do is conversation--a lot of teachers don't. We have a 4 skills programme. When we do teach speaking skills it is not "Pavlovian reflexes" we teach a variety of skills related to speaking, including, discussion, debate, simulated activities and tasks. If done correctly there are a variety of ways to access progress (another topic)

2. That we all have old-fashioned ideas about teaching because we don't agree with you! You imply that unless you teach literature than you cannot teach your students to think. "You all probably have some pretty old-fashioned ideas of what learning an L2 is all about - it is, above all, learning TO THINK, not just imitating pseud-English sounds!"

Believe me there are many ways to do this, teaching literature is one way, but not the only way. And there are many teachers out there doing it without teaching literature. I agree that teaching literature to EFL students could be very rewarding for both the teacher and the students, but it depends so much on the circumstances. A lit background means no more to EFL teaching than an MBA (good for business classes) or some other specialist background.

[Celeste]

Funny, I was just reading this article on a related topic.

http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/information/tesl-ej/ej25/a1.html

[Lucy Snow]

My husband taught literature classes at a university in Japan for over eight years.

The first year, he discovered quite quickly that the low language abilities of his students meant that he couldn't ask them to read more than one novel/semester. (I don't know about you Roger, but I couldn't spend an entire semester teaching only one book.) So, he switched to short stories. Students managed about two or three per semester. Finally he gave up and taught only poetry in his Lit classes for the rest of his time in Japan. Before you jump in Roger, and call my husband a dummy, he had years of experience teaching literature and composition in American universities, and did quite well.

Before you can get a piece of serious literature across to language students, they must have sufficient ability to read and understand the texts. Otherwise, they're just going to parrot back whatever you say about a particular novel. It's not that the students are unable to think, it's that they don't have the language tools at their disposal to analyze literature, or to test the veracity of what you say in class.

Oh, and I can't believe you put Grisham on the same list with Joyce...

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Hello Wolf [and friends!]

Getting back to your original question for just a moment: "What is a qualified teacher in the world of EFL?"

I've thought about this for 2 days now, instead of immediately jumping to the keyboard, which is what I usually do.

Here's what I've concluded from those 2 days of deliberation, and based on my 14 years in the classroom, both as a teacher and a DOS:

"Qualified" teachers come in all shapes, sizes, and colours ... from all kinds of different backgrounds and with lots of different 'academic tossed salads' behind their names, to quote Sunaru, whom I luv 'cuz he's got the coolest avatar next to mine.

The best teachers of English I've ever met were the ones who were well-rounded; the ones who were open to experimentation; the ones who were willing to adapt the rigid methodology they studied in school ... to meet the particular needs of the class in question. Having a good grasp of human nature is also a key ingredient, I think.

In plain English, qualified teachers become qualified through a process of learning what works, and by knowing instinctively how to modify what doesn't, so it will.

Whether you learned these 'tricks of the trade' in your MA program in Applied Linguistics, on the street, or by osmosis ... the important thing is the end-result, not the means you may have used to attain them. e.g. Can you convey what you know to your audience in a way that is both enjoyable and productive?

In my warped world, asking what makes a qualified teacher is a bit like asking about the existence of God, or the meaning of life. There's just no cut and dried answer. The MA in Applied Linguistics, the DELTA certificate hanging proudly on the wall, your BA in Basket-weaving, personality traits, natural talent (which I do believe in), and even the number of years spent in the classroom; none of these individually, but rather all of these collectively combine to play a role in making the ideally 'qualified' teacher.

Warm regards,
kENt

[Mike_2003]

Qualified Teacher Someone with large pieces of paper displayed in frames on their office walls.

Successful Teacher Someone with lots of small pieces of green paper in their wallet.

Good Teacher Someone whose students leave the lesson knowing more than with which they entered.

Career Teacher Someone who successfully combines all of the above.

[guest of Japan]

Roger, I'm serious.

I'd like to know your thinking in greater detail. I don't think I said anything that merits your words of wrath.

I teach in a low level private high school. My students can't read literature in their native language. Their functional English vocabularies are fewer than 200 words. Thirty percent of them can't write their names in English. Ten percent can't read the sentence, "I like watching movies." Ninety-nine percent can't read the sentence, "When I was a child I used to play in the park across the street from my house." Do you really think that literature is appropriate for these types of students?

When I said I couldn't teach literature, I meant in the way I believe it should be taught. Can I teach about themes, plot, ironies, character development, historical context, religious issues, psychological contexts, political idealogy? Yes. But I'm humble enough to admit that other people can do it better because they have more formal training than me. Do I think it is useful in my present situation to try to teach these things? Absolutely not.

Now could you kindly share your ideas to help us understand your statement a little better. Thank you, Mark

[Capergirl]

[woza17]

Has anyone ever tried to discuss Chinese literature with their students?
Writers for example, like Lu Xun or Cao Yu or even the great film director Zhong Li Mo, excuse the spelling. I find it difficult to get any conversation off the ground, even though I can get an argument going, by saying there are 2 types of people in this world, the ones that like Zhong Li Mo movies and the ones that don't and the latter are insensitive.
But there are the few exceptions, one of my Chinese friends from Hubei and I sat through one of Zhongs movies with a box of tissues between us.
It maddens me when some students say, oh his movies are common, or that it makes the Chinese people look bad, Lu Xun, I can't understand him.
Oh by the way I was really disappointed with Hero.
Regards Carol

[Roger]

To all those who made kind comments and asked pertinent questions about the function of literature in the context of teaching an L2:

Thanks, first thing, for not showering me under flak! There was some really constructive criticism which shows that you know some of the problems involved. I agree with all of you on most points.
I agree in particular with the observation that the English grasp of our students leaves more to be desired than achieved. An observation that should also be borne in mind when people start advocating oral English as a remedy to overcome students' "shyness" (in fact, lack of self-confidence). Many on this forum (not necessarily in this thread) hold that conversation classes are a panacea. Most jobs in China are conversation classes, at all levels. Once I had an increasingly heated discussion with a principal (from Shenzhen University) who claimed that "Chinese students need to practise spoken English... the more they speak the better their English..." He justified this by referring to good ol' Noam Chomsky. Others might refer to Mr Krashen, I forgive them! As most of us (all of us?) will say, making Asian (East Asian) students participate is a major, major challenge. And, understanding their various utterances is often an even more difficult undertaking! The result is that we solidify and fossilise inaccurate English. Some Chinese actually say it in your face - "we don't need to study grammar, we only need to have a chance at speaking English!" Bollocks! This attitude has led to the government-sanctioned belief that "any English is English so long as it is not Chinese", and people honestly assume that "good English is quick and loud English" - the faster and louder you speak it the "better" it is supposed to be (you know the concept of "Crazy English", of course). This is my personal beef with China's education policy. I find it a nasty joke that foreigners (Chinese) tell me what "good English" is, and that I need to "teach" them this English with the methods they tolerate. That is with too much oral practice before the mind is conditioned to work properly in the L2. The Chinese/Japanese mind certainly cannot get used to the English way of thinking if the learner continually thinks in the L2 learner's first tongue but utters words in a different language. I guess we all know how mind-boggling communication can be with a Chinglish speaker!

Now what better way do we have to train our students to think in the target language than by training them to read, interpret (not "translate"!) and analyse? I think there is no better approach than this! The writing is symbolic, thus it stimulates abstract thinking; it also is more exact as the words are before your eyes, and you can check in a dictionary; Chinese learners would thus find out that most of them confuse the noun 'means' with the verb third person 'means' (or why do they always say "I means that..." or that "safety" is a noun, not an adjective - and thus they would learn that there is a semantic difference between "I am safe" and "I need safety". Reading would also guide them towards a better mastery of tenses and the SVA, two major sore points.

Of course, reading novels is a special task, one that requires a lot of dedication on the part of the learner. I feel, however, that too much oral English absolves students from their own responsability to take an interest in the subject and to prepare for the upcoming lesson. Reading ahead and underlining with a marker the new words and phrases is one of the jobs I had to do as a student of other languages, and by Gosh, this kept me busy week by week! Not so my Chinese students - never doing anything out of their own initiative! Never learning a single word of their own free will! Well, sorry to ruffle the feathers of some, but I do not accept it as my job to tell my students which words they must memorise!

Finally, is there any appropriate literature for Asian students? Let me say that I taught literature at a college, and, first thing, the government is constantly taking care to ensure that only APPROPRIATE things are going to make it to the classroom! No George Orwell, but plenty of Charles Dickens, of course! When I mentioned James Joyce, I was a bit absent-minded, obviously - he too is not allowed in China! John Steinbeck might be a good choice - simple enough English, nothing anti-Chinese, and plots that can be retold fairly easily.
OK, I hear some of you "literature is difficult even for native speakers". Well, isn't that a convenient cop-out? But I say: try the difficult and succeed at the easy tasks. Try the easy tasks only, and you will find the easiest tasks a challenge every day! Just like our Chinese students!
Besides, let me add that there is literature and there is literature. There are simplified English stories. You do not need to read them to get to grips with a social or political issue - just read them for fun and for the improvement of your students' English!
A pity that nobody has ever suggested we use comic strips in literature in China! Why not? French students of Latin use Asterix and Obelix (two Celtic characters and archetypes) comic strip magazines to study Roman history. It works wonderfully well - the students acquire good Latin AND a grasp of Roman history because of the telltale illustrations and humorous language employed!
Lastly, there will always be students that cannot read a novel properly - both native speakers and foreign students of English. Never mind! Accept a fact, accept a Darwinian rule. Not everybody can read Ulysses (I certainly had trouble too!). But it is a valid and valuable avenue to explore in order to stimulate students' interest in the target language. They must abandon this silly notion that only the presence of foreign people makes the use of English worthwhile! There is a lot more to be gained for them through reading! Those who fail in the literature exam may still do well in spoken English - who knows? However, I am more than sure that those who understand the semantics of a novel can converse more easily than those who are not interested in reading. Amy Tan might be a most readable author for Chinese - lots of things to discuss!
Oh, lest I forget it: Literature does not exclude the media. But in a country like the PR of C, can you really read and discuss a newspaper report or commentary with your students? The choice of readable and unbiased writing is so limited that even students do not always fancy reading the CHINA DAILY.

[kimo]

Roger, I would agree with you that reading is extremely important for mastery of a language and it is a cop out to say that it is difficult even for native speakers. Who said learning a language is easy? By reading, students learn that words do have different meanings in different contexts. It does help students learn the nuances and subtleties of a language and to start to really feel it and know that learning is more than just screaming out phrases. But perhaps there is a right time to introduce Ulysses to a reader. I have used short passages from Steinbeck and Charles Deekins with some success, but only after giving much background. Some, not all, students can really take it and fly and start to see the value in it. One can use newspapers, magazines and even comics as well. (I actually am doing this myself to learn Chinese. I have done it with other languages too.)

Another thing you always expound on and I completely agree is that writing will greatly improve a learners use of the target language. I believe if a learner can think it (mind you think it) and write it, he/she can say it and use it. And teaching writing is not always a go home and do it job. It can be done with a think-on-your-feet approach.

One thing I don't understand,

[Glenski]

Roger,

In Japanese high schools, where I teach, Japanese teachers teach the grammar, reading and writing skills. Sometimes they are accompanied by a native English speaker (in my private school it is not a JET ALT, but rather a full-fledged teacher). For the most part, the foreign teachers are there to teach oral classes, but these are NOT conversation classes akin to the language schools you so vehemently despise. We teach speech making skills, special projects like making TV commercials and plays, and other things.

[Wolf]

There have been some great ideas up until now. A few brief comments of my own.

Use of a BA in English Lit. I have to disagree with using lit in most classes directly. If I had tried that in Japan, they'd tune out. Many (not all but enought to be considerable) of my students did not read novels. Full stop. In my studies I learned how to proofread. That has been my greatest asset in uni teaching in China (can grade papers in a few days - pick out mistakes and explain why.) Okay, many other BAs/BScs will teach the same skills, but it is something that someone who goes aroud claiming to have such a BA should do. Aslo, and this is related to the MA thread, every one of my employers has been impressed by it. Yes, now their looking at pieces of paper is working in my favor. I still wish that more of my employers had a more balanced understanding (faintest clue?) of how education works in the West (at least to the point where they can critically evaluate a teacher's credentials (lack thereof?)

Using lit? Right. My uni has speaking classes (Freshman/Sophmore), writing classes (sophmore - I taught all of these at my uni this semester), listening classes (movies etc junior) and literature classes (I haven't taught these yet.) The core classes and reading classes (and the Deng Xiaoping and Political Theory classes - that's right two separate classes ) are taught by the Chinese teachers. My oral classes were not a farce. My students improved their ability to express themselves - in English - in a coherent manner. My writing classes were my biggest sucess. I got them to write a short story for their final exam. They didn't plagarize each other. Some plagarized ideas, but rewrote the story themselves. They gave me (mostly) coherent short stories - something most of them couldn't have done in Febuary. oh, about using lit. I have to with the seniors. It's a great way to learn the language if - and only if (as my math teacher would say) - they have the langague skills to do so. If you tossed me a copy of Soseki Natsume, I'd hide a copy of Ranma 1/2 inside it during your classes. To advanced for me - and I studied reasonably hard for 2 1/2 years while living in a country where my L2 was the L1. I knew lots of Koreans living in Japan. Even after many years, none of them could read Japanese litertature at all - simple matter of ability. Maybe some will be better/less lazy than me, but point is in a uni class many won't be.

Using comics? Heck, that's how I learned Japanese! Comics and cartoons. Don't laugh - all my Japanese teachers - who are all "qualified" - thought my strategy was brilliant! Look at all those kids in North America who love Japanese comics/cartoons (properly called anime) who learn a good set of vocab/phrases/listening ability in a languae so far removed from Engilsh - just through their hobby! The only problem here is getting decent comics (in English) and cartoons (with and English soundtrack and English only subtitles - no Chinese). I'll be teaching the listening (ie movies) class next year ... should start looking....

PS Roger, didn't you say you teach at a kindergarden? Can I see the 4 year old Chinese kids - with brains like Star Trek aliens I imagine - who can read and underdantd James Joyce better than me?

PPS Okay, that wasn't brief.

[guest of Japan]

Roger,]Thank you for your second post.

I cannot disagree with your comments given. Unfortunately they are not applicable to me presently. Glenski's description of separation of duties in the high school also applies in my situation as well. So even if my students had the ability, I would not be allowed to do it.

I wish you success with the approach.

[Wolf]

[Roger]

Just one answer to you, Wolf: In your postscriptum you ask (and I do not care whether it was cynical or not) whether I read James Joyce with my preschoolers.
As said before, JJ is NOT very high on my literature agenda. I do believe, however, that Charles Dickens can be read by college students (taught it at a normal school myself). There are uncounted other authors you can study. If students do not have the language skills YET, they are developing them during their liteature course. It is ridiculous to say that they must have a native speaker's proficiency to read Amy Tan or J.A. Michener! My point was that the reading actually makes them proficient. Of course, it presupposes that they work on their own (looking up vocabulary new to them). That's what I meant when I said they do not take the (necessary) initiative.
So, what do I 'read' with preschoolers? I do not have them READ (their stupid parents require schools to teach them to 'read this book', when in fact the kids cannot write, therefore not read, letters, let alone words!).
But, I do tell them stories or read aloud from a storybook with good illustrations. We do not use Chinese during such storytelling lessons. The next day, I ask them to retell the story, using the past tense ("yesterday we heard about the shoemaker..."). They do not forget the thread at all, that's the most fascinating aspect - unlike older kids who forget just about everything you taught them during the previous lesson! Why? Becauswe there is no memorisation involved in my lessons safe for a few new vocables which all are explained through action, not translation.
Well, and to those who discount the usefulness of English literature: My biggest problem with Chinese English majors (aged 19) was not so much the vocabulary (although a 19th century novelist presents any reader with a few problems!).
It simply was to do with their lack of imagination. They were unable to put Mr Pickwick in a time frame that corresponded with the Chinese calendar of yore which used imperial dynasties as reference points. When, for example, I pointed out that the story we were reading happened during the period when British merchants set foot on Hong Kong, they still did not understand that the Industrial Revolution happened during the Qing dynasty! This clearly has little to do with their poor grasp of English; it was more to do with their poor understanding of historical events. And their poor grasp of history is equally a product of how they "learn" anything and everything - spoonfeeding by their teachers, never developing their own curiosity, strictly doing what the teacher asks them to do. Why, my own missus tells me "Karl marx taught about how to make money at the stock exchange... he had no time for the blue-collar wretches of Manchester..." Said so, and claimed this is what they are currently learning in Karl Marx Theory courses for adults!
A more blatant example of brainwashing and counter-brainwashing I have never experienced in my whole life! But that is China and its education system!