Job Discussion Forums

[Sinobear]

Where? What? Who?

With a F visa, you must still be registered as living somewhere - whether a hotel or apartment. You can receive financial remuneration as long as you fall under the gov't guidelines for obtaining a F visa legally.

The easiest way for schools to bypass the official Z visa requirements is by simply calling you a 'Lecturer' instead of 'Teacher'.

As with all things legal in China - as it has always been and will always be - the enforcement and application of the "letter of the law" is entirely at the whim of local officials unless pre-empted by a visiting official from Beijing.

Those who choose to draw a salary, teaching English, at any school,anywhere in China...must do so knowing that they are officially in violation of the written law.

You cannot be prevented from leaving China? OH YES, YOU CAN! The tax dep't is gradually being linked with the foreign workers' whatevertheycallitnow bureau and can check whether or not you've paid tax on earnings in the PRC. So far, this is limited to the big 3 (Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou). Even if your employer says they are docking money for taxes, if this money is not actually making into the tax system, you can be detained at entry/exit points and forced to cough up the 'amount owing' before being permitted to leave.

Having a passport that is not machine readable is a nice thing to have

[vikdk]

cheers sino - a sane voice in the wilderness - you know of anybody on these lecturer F visas, and what's the difference with -

[Mysterious Mark]

Here's one from the vault: http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26836

Roger's assertion that the place of issue is a determiner of legality is still awaiting evidence.

[Sinobear]

Since you asked, vikdk: I, myself, have worked and drawn a salary on an F visa from time-to-time - in Beijing, Urumqi, Guangzhou and Fujian. When offered a contract, I get the organization involved to substitute the job title with "Consultant". I've always made certain that my taxes were being remitted, and I've never had problems getting the F visa converted to a Z visa when contracted by an organization that is legally permitted to hire foreigners.

Visa issues - L, F, Z, and even the D - always seem to be dependent on the mood of the authorities in your particular area.

I know some teachers who are not from the big 4 (Canada, USA, UK or Australia) that had to provide proof of their English competence before being issued the Z visa here in GZ.

Anyhoo, good luck to all regardless of your opinion or circumstances.

[Roger]

I derive my information from a number of books including a 680-page tome (A 4 format) called GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT FOR FOREIGN CULTURAL EXPERTS" (the exact title eludes me at the moment since I am somewhere on protracted holiday); this book cost RMB 380 and is published by a Chinese national publisher that also organised annual education seminars involving foreign teachers. Ask me in 3 days' time for the exact title of this book if you must know. Anyway, I have no modifications to make to my previous posts.

Another book I can recommend is
LIVING IN CHINA
Guide to teaching and studying in China
including Taiwan and Hong Kong

by a trio of Western authors.
As you can infer from the subtitle, it purports to be politically hyper-correct in that it even includes TAIWAN in its discussions; I have read it and found it highly accurate in most points even though it is a little out of date (being published in 1998. It's out-datedness shows in the list of potential employers - too short, not updated, most without website mention and without e-mail addresses.
But it gives you a good background on laws governing the stay of FTs in the PR of C and in Taiwan.

You can get this copy from www.findbookshere.com in Yangshuo.

[vikdk]

geeeeez! I'll have to find some sauce for my hat - look like some apologies might be heading your way Roger

If you can pay tax on a job this must be the acid test of legality - but what a nasty way of finding out your legal

Itsme - where has your F come from?

[Joe C.]

Roger's information is not accurate, at least in Guangdong.

Under an "F" visa, as well as an �L� visa, the holder is not supposed to derive any actual income for services provided in China, period. The sole purpose of an "F" visa is to facilitate longer stays so that a businessperson can investigate, facilitate or confirm business opportunities between Chinese enterprises and foreign-based enterprises.

Also, in Guangdong, there is no such thing as an independent residence permit (i.e. green book). Everything (visa & residence permit) is incorporated into one full page sticker affixed to one's passport. With an "F" visa, one is considered a "temporary" resident as opposed to a "long-term" resident and is required to register with the area police station.

When all is said and done, however, it is unlikely that you will get busted for working on an "F" visa. A conservative estimate would be that well over half of all foreign teachers in Guangzhou are on an "L" or "F" visa and hence working illegally.

Since with either an �F� or an �L� visa one cannot legally work, the only practical consideration when choosing which to apply for is the length of visa validity you may obtain. For example, there once was a time when Americans could only obtain three-month �L� visas yet get one year on an �F�. So, everybody would opt for the �F� instead of the �L�.

When all is said and done, however, it is unlikely that you will get busted for working on an "F" visa. A conservative estimate would be that well over half of all foreign teachers in Guangzhou are on an "L" or "F" visa and hence working illegally.

[vikdk]

that hat is being put to one side for the moment

[clark.w.griswald]

[Joe C.]

[Sinobear]

I'm really interested in one thing. Nowhere, I mean nowhere, does the rules and regulations regarding an F visa does it say that the holder of a F visa cannot obtain a salary, stipend, grant, or otherwise collect remuneration. The caveat is, if you do receive any compensation for services rendered under a F visa, taxes must be duly paid.

A F visa, as with the L, is not a permit to seek employment within the PRC...but it (the F visa) does provide a certain loophole (being time) to allow your contracting school - if they are legally entitled to hire foreigners - to convert your F to a Z.

This whole issue has been argued for time immemorial, and I suspect, will be argued, for years to come. I guess that no one wants to lose face by admitting they're wrong, or they're not sure.

Concerning the situation in GZ, at least, my source is the Director of Foreign Affairs, the Department of Foreign Workers (Entry/Exit), GZ.

Cheers!

[Joe C.]

[vikdk]

hey sino and Joe - hope you guys will still be here when Roger gives his evidence

[Sinobear]

Hey, Joe C...are we on the same side here or what? I have stated that you are not legal nor legit working (full time, contracted) on a F visa. Teaching full time is a job - work. Lecturing and consulting are work, but not necessarily full time.

And one thing I've learned...there is no "definitive answer" regarding anything (even what time it is!) here in China...it's all subjective.


Cheers!

[Joe C.]