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Ex-Con · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Singapore

While Klaus may seem a little offensive in his replies, I agree fully with him, on the issue of mutual respect.

Being racially Chinese, I have to say that the Chinese respect ability, but above all, we respect humility as well. While the Chinese respect authority, that authority itself, requires more than just a "teacher" tag. As a teacher, guide, educator, chinese students will respect that position, but only if they sense the sincerity of that person, who seeks to teach, guide and educate them.

The Chinese students of today can be very nationalistic, and having a foreigner talk down to them in class, treating them as if they were all illiterate children, will only serve to make them more rebellious. Most Chinese students are keen on learning, and truly, it does require much patience on the part of the educator to reach out to them and unlock their natural curiousity to the English Language.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Sonnet · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 235 Location: South of the river

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

roger quote from p22 on the promoting change thread

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

[quote="Ex-Con" Most Chinese students are keen on learning, and truly, it does require much patience on the part of the educator to reach out to them and unlock their natural curiousity to the English Language.[/quote]

Your claim that there is a "natural curiousity" (sic) towards the English language is completely untenable and unscientific. It also flies in the face of experience with Chinese kids that, as you said yourself, are "nationalistic".

"Studying" (there are different kinds of "studying", among others, a Chinese way and other ways!) English is mainly done through coercion. The subject is no elective any more, and the parents have no commonsense when it comes to judging their own kids' interest and needs; English has officially been elevated to the rank of a must-study subject in the interest of patriotism and economic considerations - nothing else.
Let me add, though, that you do get the odd occasional student that really has a personal interest in the language; I am coaching a 13-year old that speaks ten times more competently in English than my 22-year old university students! This guy can talk about classical music, sports, tell you stories with a punchline, is deeply interested in biology and knows Chinese history much better than anyone his age.

Compared to tertiary education graduates, he is far more mature because his mind is not preoccupied with material considerations and his future as a money-making robot. He doesn't yet think that English is going to maximise his income potential; he learns English in order to widen his social circles, to read novels in simplified English (from Charles Dickensen to Grimm fairy tales).

When I see my future engineers, computer experts, accountants, economists I see blank faces and equally empty minds; a brain that is clogged with useless data half-heartedly assembled and absorbed without any personal identification with the subject matter (they do not, after all, choose their major - it is attributed them from top down).
I don't blame them, of course, and I too am much more effective when personal chemistry is positive. Luckily, this is a realm that I have over the years learnt to hone and perfect.

There are students that actually voice their opposition to having to talk to their classmates in English; why do they join such a class? It is because they want the easy credits. I hold that credits must be earned, and respect for a teacher begins by accepting his or her advice or instructions.

You are abyssmally wrong in your contention that Chiense students "respect" their teachers; that was long before the Cult. Revolution, and since then, teachers are pitied or ignored. It might be different in Singapore, and it certainly was different in most countries I have been to - Israel, Soth Africa, France - teachers there enjoyed more respect than they do in China.

Still, for an FT it is relatively easy to win the hearts of Chinese students. It's a question of personality and maturity whether you get accepted and whether you can lead.

And in the interest of the pursuit of a really useful discussion I put here the question to you:
Why the hell don't these over-educated and underachieving Chinese English teachers practise what they are preaching, i.e. communicate with their own students in the target language??? There is no excuse for this derelction of duty!
Shall I tell you how I learnt Romance and other languages at primary school?
Our teacher certainly did not TRANSLATE from one lingo into the other! We learnt a new word, then had to practise it right away; if it was a verb we had to conjugate it wotj all pronouns
in writing and orally; we got the entire grammar in French or Italian or German. We memorised USEFUL titbits such as
the endings of verbs according to the subject which they joined; the verbs change all the time, from person to person.
Take our Chinese students: after ten years, my pseudo-engineers cannot differentiate between the past tense (last week I don't come to class...I forget come, sorry...") or "he don't know must go English that day..."

Maybe you subscribe to the by now highly discredited but oh so faddish communicative approaches - you too have to learn the hard way!
It simply doesn't work in most places, and the least of all in China!

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

deary me what has that post to do with teaching method and getting the student to participate in a lesson - are you cross Laughing

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I am not cross; I merely question your IQ! IQ or EQ - I don't know which is worse... You aren't contributing anything of value to this, nor indeed to any thread!

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

roger, by countering the type of amatuer gibberish you spout here in the name of education can only contribute to the thread - you think any thinking teacher could be quiet when he reads of the kind of activity you carry out in your classroom - If it were my classes I'd stay stum Laughing

Ex-Con · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Singapore

I may have mispoken myself Roger, since I surely do not have any such experience you possess with your students in China.

However, to say I am abysmally wrong in that Chinese students do not respect their teachers?? I believe you are speaking from your own experience (pls correct me if I am wrong) My own experience tells me otherwise. Students all over the world respect their teachers. They respect earnestness, sincerity, and humility.

While my claim that Chinese students possess a natural curiousity in learning English may be non-scientific, I make such a claim based on the notion that students all over want to learn, and possess a curiousity for things that are alien to them. I assure you, that the Chinese students with or without Nationalistic tendencies do possess curiousity to learn English (from my own experience). It may take a little wheedling, but they are all there to learn. And talking down to them will only serve to stoke the misplaced Nationalistic fervour and dull their natural curiousity.

Of course, it is infinitely frustrating when students throw their tantrums, appearing to "refuse to learn" the most fundamental of concepts. But to be honest, learning a foreign language is never simple, and as educators, we should never despair, and we should always strive to understand our students.

Forgive the pedantic tone of my post. I am sure most who post in this forums are able educators in their own right. I am only seeking to share my experiences with Chinese students. There are bad apples in every tree, and its all up to us to clean away the worms. I assume (again, correct me if I'm wrong), that Roger may have had his fair share of bad experiences with the Chinese administration, and the negative attitudes of some students.

I will not assume to share my teaching methods, since that could be insulting. But I will leave this discussion with one piece of advice. That is, we must try to understand our students and why they appear not to be learning, before we can proceed to teach.

Ex-Con · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Singapore

I may have mispoken myself Roger, since I surely do not have any such experience you possess with your students in China.

However, to say I am abysmally wrong in that Chinese students do not respect their teachers?? I believe you are speaking from your own experience (pls correct me if I am wrong) My own experience tells me otherwise. Students all over the world respect their teachers. They respect earnestness, sincerity, and humility.

While my claim that Chinese students possess a natural curiousity in learning English may be non-scientific, I make such a claim based on the notion that students all over want to learn, and possess a curiousity for things that are alien to them. I assure you, that the Chinese students with or without Nationalistic tendencies do possess curiousity to learn English (from my own experience). It may take a little wheedling, but they are all there to learn. And talking down to them will only serve to stoke the misplaced Nationalistic fervour and dull their natural curiousity.

Of course, it is infinitely frustrating when students throw their tantrums, appearing to "refuse to learn" the most fundamental of concepts. But to be honest, learning a foreign language is never simple, and as educators, we should never despair, and we should always strive to understand our students.

Forgive the pedantic tone of my post. I am sure most who post in this forums are able educators in their own right. I am only seeking to share my experiences with Chinese students. There are bad apples in every tree, and its all up to us to clean away the worms. I assume (again, correct me if I'm wrong), that Roger may have had his fair share of bad experiences with the Chinese administration, and the negative attitudes of some students.

I will not assume to share my teaching methods, since that could be insulting. But I will leave this discussion with one piece of advice. That is, we must try to understand our students and why they appear not to be learning, before we can proceed to teach.

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

vikdk, first of all, i never expected anything like this to happen in a classroom, in china at least. i did break up the fight. i broke it up, took them outside and asked them what they thought they were doing. they didnt want to talk. so i sent them home to let them cool off.

then we worked it out the following week. as punishment, i thought their excess physical prowess was better spent in some very light exercise and can hardly be equated with me "beating" them. these arent kindys you know. surprised at your reaction really. the rest of the class was embarrassed by the behaviour of these two, and they let me know it. in my view these two students were lucky. i did mention it to a chinese colleague who had no comment (a disinterested teacher, i dont know) had i turned it over to the dean, which is what they didnt want me to do, i'm sure their punishment would surely have been more severe than what i doled out Sad

some posters may not agree with what i did, but i stand by it. if it happens again, perhaps i can try different tactics, and more relevant. we only learn by experience.

7969