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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| latefordinner wrote: |
| The OP has since given further information regarding the suitability and desirability of the agent in question. Either you haven't read the posts very carefully, or else we disagree on some very fundamental issues, Clark. |
Yes this second post was very informative and yes for some reason I did overlook this post before making my second post which may make some of my comments somewhat redundant.
My main point still stands however and as I said in my first post, I understand that I may not receive much support from others on this issue. Maybe I can explain my point more clearly this way. It seems to me that the school is the paying customer of the recruitment services provider. Teachers are unfortunately the commodity that these two sides trade. Once the recruiter introduces a teacher to a school and vice versa then it is my opinion that as long as those two parties choose to co-operate then they should accept the involvement of the recruiter who initially introduced these two parties. I understand that this is not written in stone and that peoples views on this may vary, but it seems to me to be wrong to cut the agent out of the deal, and doing so creates bad karma in my opinion. This bad karma may just come back to haunt you later.
It seems from the OP�s further information that the agent may have tried to change the terms of the deal between contracts. This is negotiation. The teacher does not need to accept these new terms of course, but if you choose to stay at the school then it is my opinion that you should work out the deal to your satisfaction through the agent who initially introduced you. Should push come to shove then a choice needs to be made as to whether to accept the new terms and continue working for the school, or refuse the terms and therefore have to find a new school. To refuse the terms and then cut a deal with the school directly is wrong in my opinion and as I stated earlier I believe that the authorities would see things this way also.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| Keeping something that is not yours is not the sort of behaviour that favourably impresses most foreigners, whether it is an employer or anyone else who does the keeping. That is just the sort of thing that leads o foreigner to decide, "I don't want to do business with this person any more." |
When you choose to take advantage of the services of a recruitment agent I believe that the relationship with the school is the recruiters business. I don�t agree that the recruiter is taking something that is not his or hers to be taken. If you don�t like the deal that is being offered by the recruiter then you have the right to walk, but it seems wrong to me to negotiate the deal directly behind the recruiters back. It seems to me that this sort of behavior doesn�t say much about the school if they are willing to offer to �rip the recruiter off� which is essentially what they are doing considering that they initially agreed to pay the recruiter the introduction fees for the teacher. So if you don�t want to do business with this person then don�t, but don�t attempt to justify dishonestly going behind the recruiters back.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| As for the behaviour of the school and of the OP, it seems to me that they have fulfilled their obligations to the recruiter. What do you find reprehensible in that? |
I don�t believe that I used such strong language nor would I as it seems to me that the OP is a legitimate person and I can certainly appreciate the logic used by him or her in making the decision. My post is not intended to be overly critical of this particular person, but more just my view of the situation.
As for the school and teacher fulfilling their obligations well I would agree that there is an argument along the lines of the initial contract finishing and therefore anything that happens after that is nobodies business but the school and the teacher. I can certainly see this point and I cannot state that it is an invalid point to make. I just personally believe that it is morally wrong to act in that manner and I feel that this is unjust for the recruiter who made the initial introduction. It is however a personal decision and despite my concerns I respect the OP�s decision on the matter.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| Tell me, Clark; if the recruiter found another new foreign face (= cheaper, more gullible), would you find fault with said recruiter for trying to sell the new teacher to the school next year? It would not only cut the previous teacher off from a source of employment, but would also deprive the school of a proven, reliable performer and stick them with an unreliable backpacker. |
Well I think that you have made obvious assumptions here in an effort to back up your point as for all we know the second teacher could be better than the first, but overall I would say yes the recruiter should have this right.
Let me explain. As I stated earlier, it seems to me that as the school pays for the recruiter then it is the school that the recruiter needs to work for. I have recommended on this forum more than once that in my opinion there are a lot of advantages to be had by teachers choosing to pay recruiters and ensuring that schools are not involved in this occasion. Were the teacher to be the fee paying customer of the recruiter then I believe that your analogy above would not occur. But as long as the school pays for the services then yes I believe that the school or the recruiter could choose to oust a teacher in favor of a better/worse, cheaper/more expensive, younger/older etc replacement at the end of the contract term. I of course hope that this would be organized professionally.
[quote="latefordinner"] We've all seen you go to bat for the poor recruiter, but I can't recall you saying anything against a recruiter in favour of the hard-done-by school or teacher.
I believe that I put a lot of information out on the internet about avoiding bad recruiters, exposing these companies and outlining what to look out for. I do this on this and other forums, as well as the site that I am involved with. If my comments on this particular site come across as being biased towards recruiters then that is likely because I feel that this board already has a voice representing teachers and I believe that hearing both sides of the story is important. What you won�t find however is any posts from me defending dishonest, illegal, or misleading practices of any recruiter, nor will you find the same for teachers. I believe that my views are consistent in this regard in that wrong is wrong regardless of whether it is the teacher or the recruiter.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| Well call it another of those cultural differences. Foreigners tend to think that an agreement cuts both ways; that what one owes another is balanced by what the other owes the first. Where I come from, there is a saying, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." |
Well as a foreigner myself I believe that I am pretty well aware of what foreigner views are. This in fact is what makes me question the validity of the argument that seems to be made here. I believe that overall foreigners back home do not like back room dealings. If you choose a service provider then you do so on the understanding that you will follow through on the arrangements that are agreed to. I don�t believe that foreigners in general subscribe to a theory that you only need to act honorably as long as you are getting what you want, but as soon as things don�t go your way you can then screw others to get what you want.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| I believe that it is neither up to the teacher nor to the school to further involve the agent in their ongoing cooperation. It seems to me that if the agent really wants to continue receiving a piece of the action, the obligation rests with the recruiter to continue earning that piece of the action. I guess that's another cultural difference. |
I don�t think that this is a cultural difference but instead an issue of perspective. It seems to me that an agent who does a good job upfront of ensuring that a school and a teacher are matched well and happy, should get the long term benefit of doing a good job. It seems to me that your belief is that once the initial contract is up then all bets are off and it is a free for all for everyone to act however they so please. I am not suggesting that you are wrong as yours is a valid point of view. It just seems to me that as long as we foreigners participate in this industry in such a cut throat fashion then we cannot expect the school and agents in the industry to behave any better.
I also agree that the school and the teacher have the right to choose whether or not to involve the agent after the completion of the contract. It seems to me however that to be totally fair the school should then find its own teachers and the teacher should the find his or her own school. Of course there is no way to stop the teacher from �finding� that school, but lets not pretend that this is anything less than what it really is. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Double post.
Last edited by clark.w.griswald on Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: ....... |
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| It seems to me that it is a reasonable expectation that the agreed parties will include the agent in their affairs should they choose to continue their agreement. I conceed that the agents job for subsequent signings is much easier than the first years signing, but it seems to me that this is the reward for the agent finding good schools and making suitable introductions. |
i disagree as well. the agents job is easier second time around..... there's nothing to do!!! the teacher has already been introduced to the school and already been employed there. as far as i can see, any subsequent contracts between the teacher and this school where the teacher was originally loaned to should have nothing to do with the agent. looks like someones getting too greedy here.... wanting something for nothing. the recruiter has done nothing to deserve further payment. |
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Teaque
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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To clarify further:
No, there was no non-competition clause in my contract. As soon as the agent told me via e-mail that I could seek alternate employment if I wasn't happy about teaching off campus, I approached my school. I requested them to make sure their deal with the agent didn't tie them down & only then, did I decide to switch "loyalties". I don't like breaking rules. They result in messy repercussions and a guilty conscience. As I said, the agent was sure I wouldn't leave my school as the Head (yes, the same one who's not standing up for me now) had told the agent about a month earlier that I could be their "honoured guest" for as long as I wanted.
I replied to the agent's e-mail saying that I would take up their offer to not re-sign with them, but of course, didn't tell them who was ready to hire me. I didn't think it was necessary as it didn't feel like a personal victory or something to gloat about. The school was happy I was staying on, I was happy they were letting me stay on and the agent, unfortunately, got the short end.
latefordinner, you're right about there being no resentment. Despite being surprised by the viciousness of the agent and being frustrated over the Head's hesitance to stand up for me, I still cannot feel resentful towards either. I understand their reasons.
Since some of you have suggested a Z visa via Honkers, could you please tell me how I go about that? My school has no idea about this option and I, no experience with that route. The other direct hires came in on F visas that got changed to Z visas here.
1. What documents do I need from my school?
2. What's the procedure in HK?
I'm familiar with getting a 6 month F visa: go to a travel agent, submit my passport and 2 photos and the fee before noon & collect my passport that same evening.
7969, you mentioned it will take a week in all. Does that mean I will have to stay in HK for a week?
Update: Day 4 and no news from the Middle School head about setting up a meeting time with me. I'm giving her until tomorrow evening. Then I'll approach the Senior School Head of English.
Thank you all again for your time and interest. |
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Teaque
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:23 am Post subject: |
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The Internet is still playing up, but I managed to get through a couple of posts regarding the Z visa, so I'd like to confirm what I understand. Those are my questions below from the earlier post:
1. What documents do I need from my school?
"Official Invitation Notice for Chinese Visa Application" and the "Foreign Expert Affairs Invitation Confirmation"
Could someone please let me know the same in pinyin?
Where is the school to get them from - the PSB or the Education Dept.? I would think the visa application from the PSB and the FE Invitation from the Education Dept.
2. What's the procedure in HK?
It's pretty much like the F visa process: Passport, photographs, the 2 above mentioned documents and the fee. Same day service at most travel agencies.
Does that mean I will get the Resident Permit for Foreigners (RPF) sticker in my passport and the little red FEC booklet without the medicals?
Won't whoever is issuing this be able to crosscheck my passport details and find that I have a valid FEC and FRP with a different school?
Thank you. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Teaque wrote: |
...
1. What documents do I need from my school?
"Official Invitation Notice for Chinese Visa Application" and the "Foreign Expert Affairs Invitation Confirmation"
...
Where is the school to get them from - the PSB or the Education Dept.? I would think the visa application from the PSB and the FE Invitation from the Education Dept.
2. What's the procedure in HK?
It's pretty much like the F visa process: Passport, photographs, the 2 above mentioned documents and the fee. Same day service at most travel agencies.
Does that mean I will get the Resident Permit for Foreigners (RPF) sticker in my passport and the little red FEC booklet without the medicals?
Won't whoever is issuing this be able to crosscheck my passport details and find that I have a valid FEC and FRP with a different school? |
It has been a long time since I've had to go through this process so others here may have a fresher memory than I have. Basically, you cancel with the relevant authorities your Foreign Experts Certificate, Work Permit and current "Z" visa and leave the country (i.e. go to HK). Before you do so, you get a signed contract from your employer just to protect yourself from possibly getting the shaft and get left at the alter once you return.
You go to HK and get either an "F" or an "L" visa (whichever is fastest and cheapest for you) and then return to your school. They go to all the relevant authorities and process you as a new hire.
Another option is that after you cancel all of your stuff where you are and before going to HK, you get the PSB to give you a 30 or 60-day stay before you have to leave the country once they have canceled your "Z" visa. Then your school processes you as a new hire.
Not sure now exactly what your school needs to process you as a new hire. In many areas the FEC is unnecessary but for working in a university. If you need the FEC, they get this by going through the Education Bureau. Then you need a work permit issued by the Labor Bureau. This requires a signed, legal contract and, sometimes, a medical exam. Once you have the work permit and, if necessary, the FEC, you go to the PSB. If not already done, you need a medical exam. They issue visa. The whole process can be completed in a week (in smaller cities) or up to 3 weeks in Guangzhou. |
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Teaque
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Update:
I typed out everything that happened this afternoon, but on second thoughts, I deleted it. I think it will be prudent not to publish the details at this juncture. There's still work for me to do. I'm relieved I finally got someone to listen and point out a possible peaceful solution because the school and I have everything in order.
Unfortunately, I can't get moving until mid-week. Will let you know what happens then.
Thank you and have a good weekend! |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think the previous reply you got to your latest query is not quite on the spot since that poster advised you how to obtain an 'F' or 'L' visa in HK while you wanted to know how to go about getting a work visa there.
I think you can read up in a couple of stickies.
I will recap in as concise a manner as possible:
You only need a work visa if your employer can upgrade it to a residence permit. A work visa nowadays is only needed for newcomers who apply for their permits (work visa) abroad and get a residence permit no later than 30 days upon arrival here.
Note that your employer must apply for a residence permit within 30 days (as far as I know) after you have arrived in the mainland.
As for the DOCUMENTS, it's going to be much the same as for obtaining a residence permit except that you also need to present a formal and stamped invitation letter. You may also have to undergo a medical examination (that varies too from locale to locale; I suppose the new rule that stipulates you now need a residence permit issued locally will specify where you need to see the doc for your check-up - in HK or in your employer's municipality).
I am not sure all provinces accept work visas issued in HK...
I am also somewhat sceptical that HK is a genuine alternative since the final say over whether you can work at that school (by cutting out the agent) lies with the PSB - and who knows how much clout the agent has over the police?
In Hong Kong, you will have to go to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Visa Section, 18 Harbour Rd., Wanchai; it may take a couple of days...
The other option - getting a commercial sort of an 'F' visa with the help of a travel agent is not a kosher solution! |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
You only need a work visa if your employer can upgrade it to a residence permit. A work visa nowadays is only needed for newcomers who apply for their permits (work visa) abroad and get a residence permit no later than 30 days upon arrival here.
Note that your employer must apply for a residence permit within 30 days (as far as I know) after you have arrived in the mainland. |
Not exactly. There is no such thing as a residence permit anymore. The full passport-page sticker affixed to your passport serves as both visa, residence permit and multiple re-entry authorization. Those little green books that were once known as residence permits no longer exist.
| Roger wrote: |
I am not sure all provinces accept work visas issued in HK...
I am also somewhat sceptical that HK is a genuine alternative since the final say over whether you can work at that school (by cutting out the agent) lies with the PSB - and who knows how much clout the agent has over the police? |
Any visa issued by the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (i.e. the Chinese State Department) must be valid anywhere in Chinese territory. Unless you obtained the visa by fraud or are a subversive, the PSB cannot refuse to recognize your visa. To think otherwise is ludicrous.
| Roger wrote: |
| In Hong Kong, you will have to go to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Visa Section, 18 Harbour Rd., Wanchai; it may take a couple of days... |
And this is just about the only thing that Roger advises that is kosher. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Not exactly. There is no such thing as a residence permit anymore. The full passport-page sticker affixed to your passport serves as both visa, residence permit and multiple re-entry authorization. |
Ahhh, Joe! Stop what you're doing, drop everything and go and grab your passport. Now, what does it say at the top of that 'sticker'? Hmmm. Residence Permit For Foreigner In The People's Republic Of China.
Visas and F.R.P.s are, and have always been, two separate things. A 'Z' visa allows entry into China for the purpose of taking up employment but it MUST be converted to a F.R.P. within 30 days. 'L' and 'F' visas cannot be converted into F.R.P.s.
| Quote: |
| (An F.R.P.) serves as ...... multiple re-entry authorization. |
And this is just about the only thing that Joe C. advises that is kosher. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
Ahhh, Joe! Stop what you're doing, drop everything and go and grab your passport. Now, what does it say at the top of that 'sticker'? Hmmm. Residence Permit For Foreigner In The People's Republic Of China.
Visas and F.R.P.s are, and have always been, two separate things. A 'Z' visa allows entry into China for the purpose of taking up employment but it MUST be converted to a F.R.P. within 30 days. 'L' and 'F' visas cannot be converted into F.R.P.s. |
Well, Spidey is right in the name printed on the sticker, but the fact is that it serves as visa, residence permit and multiple re-entry permit all rolled into one. If you enter China with an "L" or an "F", you can have them converted to a "Z" visa (assuming you go through the process), but the new sticker they put in your passport will not be called a "Z" visa rather it is titled what Spidey says.
If you get your "Z" visa outside of China sometimes you are given a one-year "Z" and other times one for a month or two. If you get the one-year variety, you just register with the PSB but no new sticker is put in your passport. If you get the short one, you get it converted to a new sticker entitled as Spidey said.
Stick to kosher glue Spidey. It leaves the brain cells intact. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| If you get your "Z" visa outside of China sometimes you are given a one-year "Z" |
WTF  |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
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| If you get your "Z" visa outside of China sometimes you are given a one-year "Z" |
WTF |
My last one was one year. The one before that 60 days.  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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It seems clear that Spiderman Too and Joe.C both have pretty clear understandings of the visa process. What is unclear to me is how there can be such polar views on what should be an otherwise relatively simple issue.
I think that this issue is one that concerns a lot of teachers and it would be good if we could get some agreement on the processes and terminology rather than the past arguments and hair splitting.
I hope that Joe.C, Spiderman Too and others can correct my summary below so that we can have a somewhat accurate description of how things are done. It might be best if we point out areas that we agree upon and outline areas of disagreement.
1. A visa in a passport to China will be accepted throughout China and is not a provincial matter.
2. At a provincial level there may differing interpretations of the purpose of the value of certain visas (the �F� visa being a good example of this), but the legislation in regards to appropriate usage remains constant throughout the country.
3. The �Z� visa is only a transitional visa of a short duration (in the order of one to two months) and this visa has no value other than being an essential step in the process to becoming a legal foreign teacher in China.
4. The �Z� visa is replaced by the other working documents and a Residence Permit For Foreigner In The People's Republic Of China. Which is the sticker placed in your passport and which replaces the previous Green Book.
5. Green Books are no longer given in any province in China????
6. The Residence permit permits you to stay in China for the purposes of work as well as enter and leave the country at will during its duration. It therefore supersedes the previous process of having to obtain permission to leave the country.
That�s what I get from posts on this forum. I hope that those in the know can correct this information as appropriate. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| My last one was one year. The one before that 60 days. |
Hey JC! How about showing everyone that you are not a maliciously, misleading malcontent? Scan your 12 month 'Z' visa (black out your personal details, of course), post it to one of the many photo hosting websites, and post a link right here so everyone can see it! |
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