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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry you point is not well taken. If you were interested in things that were applicable in the classroom you would take a B.Ed or something else along those lines. MA's and Ph.D's are for research not application. Tell me how sweating for years writing a paper 99.9% of native English speakers won't understand can be of benefit to a classroom of people who can barely understand English. I'll make my point clear. If you want to be a professor in a Western university that has TESOL programs no problem, do the research etc. If you are teaching a class full of Chinese students who can barely understand you then your MA and Ph.D are useless. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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saint, I think you don't know what a Ph.D. can be. You haven't done one. I have, and I use many of the results (as well as the results of other Ph.D. theses) in "overseas classrooms" all the time.
You should forget the stereotypes of "theory" and "research". And get that B.Ed, too.  |
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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I will be completing my B.Ed in May. Possibly starting an M.Ed in June. Ph.D's and MA's are not teacher training courses. It will be tough for you to convince me otherwise. If you gained a lot of teaching expertise from you Ph.D that's great. Would you honestly say a Ph.D or MA in any field is required to teach ESL? I don't think so. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu wrote: |
I think it reflects on the lack of professionalism of FTs in China. How can we be expected to be paid like professionals if we do not do our job in a professional way? As a FT at a university, I think I can safely say that if I held a similar position at a similar type of school back home I would be expected to do some professional research.
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And you can also safely say you would have a desk, a computer and easy access to a photocopier. 
The "research" that some of the Chinese teachers do is not research at all. Look at the publications of the Foreign Language Teaching Research Press here. Some of the books are simply random copy and pastings from wherever the author can find some material at the last moment. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| saint57 wrote: |
| Would you honestly say a Ph.D or MA in any field is required to teach ESL? |
That was NOT your original point, saint!! You stated that a Ph.D. couldn't contribute anything that applied to the "overseas classroom".
People write Ph.D. theses after extensive research and analysis. That research and analysis can be entirely about teaching methodologies and results (based on extensive classroom observations and testing). What can be better for the classroom?
And, my friend, an M.A. in TESOL is most definitely a "teacher-training course". At least the good ones are. Yes, there's a research component and a thesis. So what? The research is quite often firmly grounded in classroom observation and practice. |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| And, my friend, an M.A. in TESOL is most definitely a "teacher-training course". At least the good ones are. Yes, there's a research component and a thesis. So what? The research is quite often firmly grounded in classroom observation and practice. |
An MA TESOL is a teacher training course. I dont know many people who get a MA in TESOL and dont use it to become teachers. I find a great deal of value from having one. First I learned a lot about teaching Methods. The different approached to language teaching and learning. It gives you some ideas about course design and lesson planning.
The MA TESOL I took did not have a thesis option. We were required to do a Plan B paper which is a little larger than a course paper.
There was also required classroom observation. There is some truth to overseas application of what we learn from a MA, but the experiences of classmates who have taught overseas help to account for that perspective. Also, in the field itself there is some inquiry as to whether it is properly addressing the needs of FL teachers. And what are the differences between teaching FL and SL. This was discussed at a MITESOL confrence where a number of people got together and discussed issues related to teaching.
There seems to be such a negative response to the idea of doing research. That it is not required of teachers. First, I still firmly believe it is a core part of a university instructors job. I am not sure how it can be argued that it isnt. I think if someone wants to have a career in the academic world then contributing to the knowledge base is essential. It is not enough to just talk about or teach ideas of others without contributing something of your own. Good teaching in a university may help you keep a job there but if your wish is to get tenure then you have to do some research work and get it published. I understand in China there is not really the possiblilty for us to get tenure or anything beyond the position of foreign expert. BUT I will go back to the US, and I will teach in US universities. I may like to eventually do some teacher training in an MA TESOL program. I think doing research now in China will help me achieve what I am looking to do in the future. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Yu wrote: |
| There seems to be such a negative response to the idea of doing research. |
Good point. This thread has aptly demonstrated such negative responses.
There is also a misconception about what "research" is. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: Dear Victk... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| I think it's great if people do research here. I just disagree with the view that this is the reason we are not viewed as professionals. At 95% of universities in China, no-one is doing any research. They might be publishing something, but it's not research. |
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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| BA + MA Tesol + Ph.D Tesol = unqualified to teach ESL at any public insitution in my province. If you have a B.Ed then you're a qualified teacher, but take that out of the equation and your not. You still need to do an AQ in ESL to teach ESL. If you claim you use what you learned and feel like it was a good investment then I give up you win. Ph.D's can improve teaching ability. However, that was not the original point of my response to the OP. My point is that FT's have a specific task. The task is to teach English. If they can do that successfully with a high school diploma then so be it. The OP was implying that other FT's were unprofessional for not conducting research. I am arguing that research is not part of the job description. What people do to better themselves is up to them. If a Ph.D Tesol makes you a better teacher then that is what you should do. If you are a good teacher because of your heart and character then that is just as good for what the job requires. The debate is whether or not graduate degrees are necessary to teach ESL at a Chinese university. I say no. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| saint57 wrote: |
| The debate is whether or not graduate degrees are necessary to teach ESL at a Chinese university. |
Really? Who stated that as the "debate" topic? |
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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: |
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But I am referring to academic research. I am not surprised that few people responded to this post that they are indeed pursuing academic research.
I think it reflects on the lack of professionalism of FTs in China. How can we be expected to be paid like professionals if we do not do our job in a professional way? As a FT at a university, I think I can safely say that if I held a similar position at a similar type of school back home I would be expected to do some professional research.
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That's what I responded to originally. Thus, the debate. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| ...MA's and Ph.D's don't improve one's ability to teach English. They only improve your knowledge of theories that don't apply in the overseas classroom.... |
hey saint I think you clean forgot a whole concept when you wrote that - practice - ya know as in teaching practice. Theory and prectice kinda go together - ya know theory inta practice type shiite.
Now theory on education can be applied to all students everywhere - especially the classic stuff, like Dewey, Vygotsky, Bruner - unless of course those students are classified as a different species!! But practice relates to something much more specific - the pragmatic side of our business, which has to be carried out in realtion to situation/level of students/ resources etc etc.
Shizer, the same bit of educational theory can be reflected upon with regard to both a kindy kid in sudan and a PHD student in Cambridge - but you certainly dont use your practice on (teach) them in the same way - same as you dont (because you can't even if you wanted to) teach kindy kids in Germany, Sudan and China in the same way- shizer you dont even teach different kindy classes in the same kindergarten in the same way !!!
Be nice to theories - they don't hurt anyone, and they certainly dont distinguish between creed and race (apart from racist theory) - and reflecting upon them and trying to put some of their lesson into practice could help ya teaching - PHD or not  |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| I think it's great if people do research here. I just disagree with the view that this is the reason we are not viewed as professionals. At 95% of universities in China, no-one is doing any research. They might be publishing something, but it's not research. |
I think there is a misunderstanding between the words professional and professionalism.
To me a person who acts professional does their job and meets the requirements given to him or her.
Professionalism deals more with the attitudes society has towards a particular profession or job. I think many people look down on foriegn teachers because they do not view teaching English as a sort of professional job, especially if the only qualification of the teacher is just being a native speaker of the language they are teaching. Hardly seems like a professional qualification.
I am concerned with what English teachers (foreign teachers) need to do in order to be considered professionals. That is equal to other types of university professors like math or science professors for example. I think one characteristic of a professor is that they do research. I think research is a necessary criteria of a person who views his/her job as a professional career. And for a career to be regarded by others as a professional and legitimate career the requirements should be higher than a native speaker.
What I am questioning and firmly believe is that English Teaching by foreign teachers is not considered a professional career and that it does not carry the same respect as other equally educated people would get. By educated I am in this case refering to those who possess a MA. I am not saying that every teacher should have a MA, but I think to be considered a professional (like a doctor or a lawyer) teachers should have a MA. I also think that to make TESOL something viewed as a professional career the people who are serious about this field should be doing research.
What I am gleaning is that on Daves there are not many people who view Teaching English as a professional career. Thus my comment on a lack of professionalism. As a grad student this topic of professionalism was discussed. People who are serious about this field would like it to be professionalized because there is more respect attached to this kind of career. From a comments posted I feel that most people who have responded negatively probably dont care about the professionalization of English teaching. And until English teaching is professionalized, our compensation will suck. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| I am concerned with what English teachers (foreign teachers) need to do in order to be considered professionals. |
To tell the truth my experience of so called Chinese professionals leads me to the conclusion that a concept of professionalism, which we from the west would recognise as such, is rather lacking in China - and is replaced by a class system where social pecking order rather than professional competence reigns supreme.
I think that the strange status of the FT results from us earning well above the average income - for relativly very few hours work - with almost no ass licking - and not following any of those recognised social roles expected in Chinese society.
Those who really look down on us are the employers - maybe because of traditional employer/worker relations dictate this, we cost so much, aint afraid to complain, but in the end are all bark and no bite. Maybe showing a bit more bite would be the real answer to improoving our situation |
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