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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Clark what is your agenda - roll up, roll up an pack 'em in - "you look a nice enough sort, you talk the lingo, give it a go, become an FT". Shizer you sell our profession so cheaply no wonder you need to practice in China - your kind of talk wouldn't go down too kindly in teaching world of back home  Infact in many ears it also stinks here
Persuit of our rights - tell how we go about that little matter |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Clark what is your agenda Shizer you sell our profession so cheaply no wonder you need to practice in China - your kind of talk wouldn't go down too kindly in teaching world of back home |
No I don't. I just don't hold a degree in education as the holy grail of teaching. I believe that teachers without degrees in education can also be professional.
Tell us vikdk, what do you think it is about a teacher with a degree in education that makes him or her a better teacher than say a person with a degree in the arts or sciences?
| vikdk wrote: |
| Persuit of our rights - tell how we go about that little matter |
So I take by the fact that you have not provided any further information about your experiences with the law failing you when you were seeking your rights, that you don't have such experience. So I assume then that your claims are based solely upon your opinions and what you have heard around the traps.
I hear exactly the same vibe but I think that this almost always comes from people who were not happy but then did nothing in a legal sense to resolve the problem. They just upped and ran away to complain endlessly about the situation.
I have explained in another thread how I believe others can seek justice but then there are no rules here. It is not as if there is a ten steps to success in dealing with the government here. It is hard work in fact and it is just a case of patience, politeness, and perserverance - the three 'P's' if you like. |
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jammish
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 1704
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: Re: China schools |
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| tmask wrote: |
I've been offered a couple of contracts to teach in China; however, I've tried searching for the school names but have come up with nothing. I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with:
a) MapleLeaf Foreign Language School - Grant Guymer
b) Times Language School - Mario Lanzilotta
c) Shanghai Jordan's Technological CO
d) TDM Language College - Woody Ding
Any help is appreciated. Thanks. |
I know a few people who have worked at TDM, assuming it's the one in Wuhan we're talking about. It seems pretty reasonable.
Is the maple Leaf in question the canadian school in Dalian? Or another school which has nicked the name? |
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tmask
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| The Maple Leaf Foreign School is in Handan, it's part-owners are Canadian. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Clark if you believe good English teaching is to sit a student infront of an enthusiastic good meaning English speaker - well you seem to be inviting to kind of educational dissasters that must be occuring daily in China. Maybe mature students with a choice in the matter can stand up and walk, but imagine what goes on in classes for small children who have to endure after school lessons with the FT who can never get passed hands on knees and types of fruit. As far as degrees are concerned there are a few usefull points that help the qualified teacher on her way.
An educational degree teaches that there are such things as methods - where through didatic reasoning you match your type of practice to local (mainly social and cultural) conditions, student developement and general ability. A kinda suitcase of ideas, which can filled up at college, to be opened in times of need where a new idea behind the way you teach is needed to bridge a new problem. By the way if text books are supplied in your job, they certainly won't be a bible to any method you are going to use - they are to be interpreted into a lesson, a guide - qualification also helps in this job aswell
So then there is the small matter of relationship between teacher and student - you know the pedagogic nuts and bolts of our job. In the west we are qualified to see our student as an individual within a group, and thereafter try and match (of course an almost impossible job) individual/group interests. With this in mind when encountering the under achieving individual/class, we are not just supposed to dismis this situation to student stupidity (how many times, in these forums,are classroom dissapointments blamed on the stupidity of the Chinese student) - but to try and build a teaching solution through a personal knowledge of the student/class which reflects on our professional qualification regarding teacher/student relationships - qualification that can open suitcase number 2 - one that is full of all those nasty despised theories, but which seem to be a lifeline for so many teachers who have real and usefull enthusiam for this job.
As an English teacher there could also be an argument that a bit of knowledge specificaly related to this subject- i.e. specific method such as TPR, task based learning, silent way etc etc. - and some english language knowledge over and above just being able to speak and read it, could be usefull!!!
But I better shut up because this would all start to sound like a diatribe against the unqualified rather than an advertisment for qualification.
So Clark to finish of this post I'd like to make a few final points -
Qualification - even I will concede personal qualities being essential since our job is basically to ability to form personal relationships on a professional basis, you must concede enthusiasm and the ability of the english language fall a little short of the optimal qualification for this job.
Quality - do you think FT's as a group have an interest in trying to ensure that our teaching product is regarded as a quality product originating from a group of trained professionals.
Quality - you think there is any point trying to counter the employer who markets FT through appearence rather than qualification - an employer who can maufacture degrees and buy favour from the authorities. Maybe we can't do anything in the real world - but at least a common stance here would be nice.
Filter - any need for a profession filter here, or is it an anbody can try game - which of course it always will be. So many nasty implications, both theorectical and in actuality, so at least an ethical stance on our side here in the forums,rather than any Clark style white-wash, would maybe be appreciated by some |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure that teachers with an academic background in education have plenty to offer the field of teaching, I just don't subscribe to the opinion that you obviously hold that to be a real and professional teacher one needs to have a degree in education.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Clark if you believe good English teaching is to sit a student infront of an enthusiastic good meaning English speaker |
Are you suggesting that only education majors can do more than this? I think that you are sadly mistaken.
| vikdk wrote: |
| An educational degree teaches that there are such things as methods - where through didatic reasoning you match your type of practice to local (mainly social and cultural) conditions, student developement and general ability. A kinda suitcase of ideas, which can filled up at college, to be opened in times of need where a new idea behind the way you teach is needed to bridge a new problem. |
Couldn't someone with a science major open a book to learn this? Why does one need a degree in education to be able to do more with a class than sing songs?
| vikdk wrote: |
| So then there is the small matter of relationship between teacher and student - you know the pedagogic nuts and bolts of our job. In the west we are qualified to see our student as an individual within a group, and thereafter try and match (of course an almost impossible job) individual/group interests. |
Seems pretty much common sense to me and not something that someone who genuinely wants to teach, and who genuinely enjoys teaching could not do - regardless of whether or not they have a degree in education.
Of course not every person - degree holder or not - makes a good teacher. Plenty of foreign teachers here don't even want to teach. It is just a job to them. But don't let this soil the individuals who are out there doing a good job teaching students English. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Couldn't someone with a science major open a book to learn this? Why does one need a degree in education to be able to do more with a class than sing songs? |
Are your classes sing-a-long time with Clarkie - bit more to it than that ol'son Carrying your train of logic a bit firther would be tantamount to telling our students to not bother coming to classes - scrap the FT - a dictionary, text book and VCD should do them just fine
Kind of too easy to call all that complicated stuff a teacher learns at college common sense that anybody should be able top pick up on if they are given the chance to teach - shizer that would be hard enough back home, and in the Chinese classroom I hardly think it's any easier - but then again I understand your defensive posturing when it comes to subjects, on which, you seemingly have very little understanding, since its a natural way out of an argument on a subject you're not qualified to understand
So lets make it a bit easier for you ol' chap - Clarkie the teaching pragmatist seemingly dismises diadatic method and pedagogic reasoning as superfluous to his classroom needs, which he obviously replaces with the Clarkie brand of enthusiasm and fine personality - but pray tell us how does your personality and enthusiasm cope with various erray of problems you meet in your daily teaching - what do u reflect upon to carve out the Clarkie method, and how do you reflect on it effectiveness. Put your teaching day into words Clarkie - give me a lesson on the big C way to teaching English, and lets see how you years of experience enable you to dismiss teaching qualification so easily - it would be interesting |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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vikdk as usual you try to make the discussion a personal issue. The discussion is about the points being made not the people making the points. As such I suggest that if you really want to prove your point that you concentrate on doing just that and stop trying to cloud the discussion.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Are your classes sing-a-long time with Clarkie - bit more to it than that ol'son |
Actually this is what you insinuated. You suggested that a teacher needs an education degree to get to a certain level of teaching. I question this opinion and as usual rather than explaining your point you turn to attempted wit!
| vikdk wrote: |
| Kind of too easy to call all that complicated stuff a teacher learns at college common sense that anybody should be able top pick up on if they are given the chance to teach |
Why? I asked you to explain what you think it is that makes a teacher with an education degree a better teacher than one without. You suggested that degree holders would have a better understanding of teaching techniques and ways to deal with students. Sure this would be true upon graduation, but there is nothing stopping someone without an education major actually learning these things.
My original point still stands. For me a good teacher is one that can communicate effectively with students, enthuse students, and have them learn.
| vikdk wrote: |
| but then again I understand your defensive posturing when it comes to subjects, on which, you seemingly have very little understanding, since its a natural way out of an argument on a subject you're not qualified to understand |
Oh there you go with that superior 'we education majors are better than the rest of you' business. Do you know my major at university vikdk? No you don't because I see it of no relevance here as the discussion is not about me. Don't be too sure however that I don't have the same or a higher education qualification than yourself - although admittedly I do not concentrate on the kiddies like yourself.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Clarkie the teaching pragmatist seemingly dismises diadatic method and pedagogic reasoning as superfluous to his classroom needs, which he obviously replaces with the Clarkie brand of enthusiasm and fine personality |
Another trait of vikdk discussion. If he can't make the subject personal then he just misquotes. Where in the discussion have I stated the above vikdk? I haven't so please don't misquote me an effort to try and make a point.
My point is clearly that you don't need to have an education degree to understand the above techniques and methods. As to the usefulness of each well I prefer to leave that up to the individual teacher in his or her individual situation.
| vikdk wrote: |
| - but pray tell us how does your personality and enthusiasm cope with various erray of problems you meet in your daily teaching |
vikdk I think that you really are kidding yourself if you think that people without an education major cannot solve problems in the classroom!
Personally it seems to me that a good teacher can foresee most problems with a class before they happen and thereby take preventative action. This foresight is something that comes with experience and has nothing to do with someones educational background. The fact that you concentrate on solving problems after they occur seems to call into question your effectiveness as a classroom teacher and really reinforces my point that a degree in education does not maketh the teacher!
| vikdk wrote: |
| Put your teaching day into words Clarkie - give me a lesson on the big C way to teaching English, and lets see how you years of experience enable you to dismiss teaching qualification so easily - it would be interesting |
No thanks! This discussion is not about me, it is about the point I am making. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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the subject is very much about you and the rest of your ilk - the pack em in brigade - the recruiters, the franchises, the mills - you're white, you speak English - come an get it cause the machine needs ya
An you know what - the nice maliable inexperienced recriut is what these guys feed on - so that they can exploit for profit. The qualified - shizer we don't want that - too loud , too opinionated, just too much trouble - naw we can sell the fake product at the same price - profit not quality is our goal
No wonder standards are so low in the China FT world when you have the likes of a recruiter Clarkie pour so much scorn on qualification - personal Clarkie - well dont worry so much about us two in that respect, we, I'm sure can take a bit of mud slinging - no, worry more about the poor individuals who get lured into horrible teaching situations by your free for all, uncritical advertising of this market, and those poor receivers of some of the trash that is meted out in name ESL here - I think those poor b........'s can feel a lot more agreeved at the sittuation, which is caused by your type of reckless non-professional approach to being an FT |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately you have chosen another vikdk characteristic of posting here - avoidance and attempts to change the subject. Fair enough if you have nothing else to offer the discussion. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere anyway.
| vikdk wrote: |
| the subject is very much about you and the rest of your ilk - the pack em in brigade - the recruiters, the franchises, the mills - you're white, you speak English - come an get it cause the machine needs ya |
No its not. This discussion is actually about visas, but we have hijacked this thread and taken it in another direction. Apologies to the OP. 
For months now vikdk you have been insinuating that teachers with education degrees are more professional in their duties and better teachers than individuals with degrees in other fields. I have questioned this in this thread and rather than actually proving your point you have chosen to take the discussion on other tangents.
I am sure that there are some excellent teachers in China with education based degrees, just as there are some excellent teachers in China without this major. I don't see why you fail to accept this. Insecurity perhaps?!
| vikdk wrote: |
| The qualified - shizer we don't want that - too loud , too opinionated, just too much trouble - naw we can sell the fake product at the same price - profit not quality is our goal |
Actually I believe that there are many teachers in China with education degrees who would disagree with you on this. I am sure that very few feel that the system here is excellent, but I am sure that most of them are dedicated enough to their students and their ideals of being a teacher that they look past these monetary and administrative concerns that you seem hung up on, and instead choose to concentrate their energies on offering their students the best that they possibly can.
You mention 'profit' as if it is a dirty word vikdk. I am wondering if you get paid for the work that you do here. If so then could you not then be accused of profiting from the school? Also, I am wondering how good a school would be if it didn't make a profit. How long would it exist, and what quality of education could it possibly hope to offer if it was losing money? Profit does not have to come at the expense of students anymore than a good teacher needs to have a teaching degree!
| vikdk wrote: |
| No wonder standards are so low in the China FT world when you have the likes of a recruiter Clarkie pour so much scorn on qualification |
I am not a recruiter. I have never recruited a teacher to work in China, and I doubt that I ever will as this is not what I do for a crust. I have told you this before vikdk but you seem to have selective memory. Or are you deliberately trying to be misleading in your posts? Are you really that desperate to try and 'win' a discussion?
| vikdk wrote: |
| no, worry more about the poor individuals who get lured into horrible teaching situations by your free for all, uncritical advertising of this market, |
I am involved in a website that publishes extensive information on how to avoid problem with schools and recruiters in China. A site that blacklists bad schools and recruiters and that rates others according to the way they treat teachers. Just because I don't jump on the 'bash a recruiter/chain school' wagon does not mean that I am not critical of individual companies that are bad. I just choose to look at each school and recruiter based as an indivdual case.
| vikdk wrote: |
| I think those poor b........'s can feel a lot more agreeved at the sittuation, which is caused by your type of reckless non-professional approach to being an FT |
Oh, vikdk, again with the personal insults! Didn't your mother teach you that if you don't have anything nice to say not to say anything at all! And this from a 'professional' teacher! Tsk, tsk!
The fact is that you have no idea of how good or bad a teacher I am. You have no idea how well or how poorly qualified to teach I may be. As I have stated many times, this is not about me, this is about my questioning of your opinion that teachers with education majors are automatically superior teachers because of their academic qualifications. Despite the opportunity to do so you have failed to convince me that this is the case vikdk. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Clark your white washing of the disgracefull practices that go on in China - via your kind of helping hand - are a disgrace to both to ethics of normal practice in the workplace and education - but then it must be worth it somebody can make a buck |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| And the answers to my questions are....? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Clark you are the question here - what are your motives - what pulls your strings - who are you - I for one would like to hear a lot of answers from the recruiters pet |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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hey Clarkie I do apologise for not answering the profit question - so sorry
nothing wrong with a bit of the dirty lucre - just it starts to stink a wee bit when its paired up with explotation and bad quality. Hardly something one wants to associate with education - but something one can't realy avoid (unless blind) in Chinese version of TESOL
And if ya dont believe me - just look at all those low wages and unqualified teachers and then reflect a bit on all those wealthy employers |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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The word fake for many FT's is very approriate if you ever get a chance to get a look at how our masters advertise our skills - for example never will the unqualified non-degree holder be described in their blurb as a young enthusiatic well natured white English speeker who although unqualified as a teacher is planning to take a degree - no we're always qualified language teaching experts trained to use the most modern and sophisticated teaching methods - If I was on the other side and had to pay for the services of one of these experts, then somewhere down the line I think I'd be screaming fake
Clarkie you ever learnt to call a spade a spade - or is your perticular line of expertise related to creative writing |
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